Puppetmaster Changes

[pchan]

PUP can also be a very effective nuker however if needed.

Going to disagree with this, though it could have slightly changed with the manoeuvers update. You get signiifcally more int now, so it'll be enough to cap dINT, however you won't cap on anything above VT. It's still the best damaging frame on tough or lower mobs, but that's it.

To all the idiots that say PUP is useless because other job can do what you say, and better, you are right but keep in mind this is the case for all but the 6 jobs that don't suck : rdm,whm,blm,war,mnk, thf. It's funny that pup can mimic all those jobs more or less efficiently (except thf..)

[Draylo]

Going to disagree with this, though it could have slightly changed with the manoeuvers update. You get signiifcally more int now, so it'll be enough to cap dINT, however you won't cap on anything above VT. It's still the best damaging frame on tough or lower mobs, but that's it.

To all the idiots that say PUP is useless because other job can do what you say, and better, you are right but keep in mind this is the case for all but the 6 jobs that don't suck : rdm,whm,blm,war,mnk, thf. It's funny that pup can mimic all those jobs more or less efficiently (except thf..)

That isn't entirely true. Fighting ZNM mamool atm and this pup doing 984 Bliz4, pretty sure its stronger than VT+ mob.

[Tsuko_Asura]

That doesn't mean dINT is capped

[azagarth]

Meh well my mnk got handed to me tonight in meripo lol...... fing perfect geared and aggressive amano sams grrr!!! ><; first player that ever made me feel weak lol and the drk did amazing too wasn't afraid to spam and keep his SE up. I didnt think it was possible but got over 35k/hr at a completely empty bird camp (really lucky cor rolls?). At one point we cleared both mid and bottom and all the wivre and where forced to pull mmj lol ;D was fun. However what I am getting at here is that xp/hr with my gimp mnk like veg says was still able to compete in a high performance party so meh I am not worried about my "skill". I will continue with the thought that we are pretty damn equal if we where to parse against each other. Full usu isnt much better than my mix and match set I showed at which you call "gimp". I am sure the increase you get from full usu+destroyers is probably on paar to what i receive from my h2h+mix set in terms over overall dmg increases.

heres a bit from the parse for the xp section. Not sure why the duration is 13 min higher overall though, we did have our cor die once on a bad pull (he was /rng) which lead to a fast pecking death on the rdm too was very comical which slowed us for 7~ mins getting them up and unweakened and allowing us to wc.

Experience Rates
Total Experience : 47106
Number of Fights : 191
Date : 4/12/2010
Start Time : 5:14:58 PM
End Time : 6:33:31 PM
Party Duration : 1:18:32
Total Fight Time : 1:05:16
Avg Time/Fight : 24.67 seconds
Avg Fight Length : 20.51 seconds
XP/Fight : 246.63
XP/Minute : 599.73
XP/Hour : 35983.84

[Toth]

Regardless of dINT, with proper gear, PUP's automatons have the same magic accuracy as an decked out BLM (especially with the Tranquilzer) and can control MP and hate with better results. As stated before, if a maton is having difficulty nuking a nuke without resists, chances are a BLM would have similar problems.

[Psion]

You're forgetting that pup and blm's nuking are very different. BLMs focus on a mix of elemental skill, high int, and some MAB to nuke HNMs. Pups on the other hand use an attachment that grants an extremely large magic acc bonus, moderately high int, and a VAST amount of MAB and direct magical damage boost, elemental staff style. Because of this, blm will fare better against blm mobs like kirin due to their incredibly high int, but on monsters with less int (basically any HNM thats not blm), but has a good amount of MDB, the automatons have a larger amount of magic attack bonus to punch through that defense. Only mob I've ever seen a blm outdo my automaton in damage is kirin, and that was before the new 15 int. Before oniwaka was doing roughly 1k aero IV against the blms 1050-1100ish, 1300-1400+ tornado IIs. On everything else, oniwaka's blizzard IV is on par or outmatches AMII from a blm, and unlike blms I don't have to worry about hate or mp issues hardly at all, and can basically nuke forever if done right.

What does a blm offer that pup doesn't? Thundaga III, and sleepga II, and stun. Out of those, sleepga II is available to sch as well, and stun can be used by a pup going /drk if you really need it that much. This leaves thundaga III, which is used in rather few situations. The only other advantage blms get is being able to cast back to back to back, something pup can't d....oh wait, we can actually sacrifice icemaker for mana booster and keep 3 ice maneuvers up, firing off weaker but still highly accurate nukes. In fact, the diabolos solo strategy called for this, and you can get the automaton to start casting spells with as little as 5 or so second delays between casts. (from what I can tell, the magic recast timer counts down the instant the automaton starts casting, so with 8 seconds or so of casting, there's only several more seconds left between the next cast.)

Pup is far more flexible than mnk will ever be, and is far more powerful than people give it credit for. The amount of situations i've found my pup to NOT be a great asset to have consisted of... ACP final fight. (and technically we can cure or nuke adds, but it 's not ideal) Final moogle fight? Oni was popping off nukes that were well over 4k damage while the other blm tanked. It worked beautifully. ASA fight? worked fine before update provided the automaton didn't pull hate due to a combination of subpar melee and automaton advantage over high defense mobs. ZNM? Can solo several of them, and blast mobs like dea for 1.8k damage. Dynamis? Oniwaka nearly one shot statues before this update, he probably could now. I even had him blast mnk mobs with myself and a rdm on sleep duty knocking him out right after, causing them to waste their hundred fists while slept. Limbus? Can adjust to whatever is thrown at you, meleeing the weaker mobs then swapping to blm on things like kaiser behemoth. Sea? same deal, adjust to whats needed and take em out. Sky? magic on genbu, sharpshot on seiyru, VE on kirin, etc.

You might think that pup is subpar in everything, but the fact is my automaton was top DD in a lot of fights, because I could go all out without worrying about petty things such as hate, death, or an empty mp pool. Maybe in zergs and a ls that has amano sams and the like coming out their ears a pup would be subpar, but the chances of anyone being in a ls like that are near none. Lets be more realistic and admit that pup is not a jack of all trades job, but a job that mimes other jobs, adding it's own special twists that make it a specialist in several fields in its own right. You can whine about how a blm with max merits, novio, HQ staves, etc is a better nuker with a brd, cor, rdm, and smn in party while a tank manages to keep CE and VE capped at all times, but the fact is a pup requires absolutely no support at all, 32 merit points, and a mere 2-3M in attachments to shine in practically anything. If you give it support it will shine even more, but it's only requirements are that you dedicate yourself to the job and master it. That's why it's called puppetMASTER after all.

[Tsuko_Asura]

You might think that pup is subpar in everything, but the fact is my automaton was top DD in a lot of fights,

Admittedly, I wasn't taking you all that seriously from the get-go, but your credibility went absolutely out the window after this little gem.

[miokomioko]

The argument against PUP for the applications they are actually good at conveniently doesn't look at other relevant issues, only damage per spell. Such as hate, such as MP, such as kiting, etc. If it's only about how much a single spell can do, yeah BLM is best and there's nothing else that can be said. If the mob is kited constantly, if the mob likes to one-shot any BLM that casts more than a few spells, if the mob does other bullshit that makes it difficult to get MP back, maybe you should get a decent PUP to take that spot? Not a lot of people realize any of the benefits of Automatons while simultaneously saying they are useless. I have infinite MP, I can cast while running, I can completely shed hate repeatedly... these are things that should be in the equation but are always overlooked.

[Psion]

I don't think you have any say in my credibility, considering I've dedicated myself to pup for 3 years, fully merited it, parsed it in most endgame applications, get tells a few times a week by people telling me how they or their linkshell mates were impressed by just how strong pup was after seeing me in action, and despite having blu, rdm, and cor at 75, was never asked to go any of these by the linkshell leaders, because they loved my pup and it's capabilities.

You who hasn't even leveled the job, what credibility do YOU have?

[bigpapi]

Anything you can do I can do better, on pup!!!

[pchan]

Regardless of dINT, with proper gear, PUP's automatons have the same magic accuracy as an decked out BLM (especially with the Tranquilzer) and can control MP and hate with better results. As stated before, if a maton is having difficulty nuking a nuke without resists, chances are a BLM would have similar problems.

No you are wrong, try to nuke with the your pet sommetimes. My BLM has 80% landing rate on JoL and my puppet has 100% resist rate ... problem, and that's with 3/3 ice man of course.

[Psion]

A)JoL is a blm. blm mobs have high int. kirin is the same situation. Combined with the elemental resist patch, it makes it more difficult for an automaton to land spells.

B)JoL changes its element. Take this into account.

C)Why the fuck arent you using valoredge when it rapes it?

D)You're Pchan, of course you fail.

I've nuked just about anything that is better to be blasted than meleed, and Kirin is the only example where spiritreaver didn't do as well. Sure it was OK, but VE destroyed everyone on parse and even managed to steal hate once, parsing at 22.8% total damage. (Beat two highly merited and well geared smns using diabolos's combined damage, allowing them to melee kirin as well instead of just BP.)

If you're using nukebot on JoL, urdoinitwrong. But then again, considering who it is, i'm not suprised at all. The only other mob that gave trouble with nuke resistance to me is stonewall with grauberg [s] augment fight, and valoredge does a lot better on him anyways. On everything else, from jailers to sky gods, dynamis mobs to znm, salvage chariots to limbus bosses, KSNMs to random notorious monsters and VNMs added, Oniwaka's resist rate is almost always 95%+ magical accuracy, and the rest at about 85-90% for the more troublesome ones. And the resists tend to happen on the one ice maneuver nukes, which have less magic acc than the 3 ice maneuver ones anyways. The rest happen on random overloads. >.<

[Cream Soda]

Full usu isnt much better than my mix and match set I showed at which you call "gimp". I am sure the increase you get from full usu+destroyers is probably on paar to what i receive from my h2h+mix set in terms over overall dmg increases.

wrong

[Cream Soda]

Az, why don't you show the damage part of your parse, huh? You know why? I checked your "equal to usu gear out" and guess what, lol You have under 80% hitrate w/ focus down. That's just plain shitty, especially considering you have shen baghs.

[pchan]

blm mobs have high int

You are an idiot if you think that higher INT is the main thing responsible for 80% landing rate difference. With 3/3 ice man the BLM has ~100-150 magic accuracy for than the puppet. With the new ice man make it probably ~75-125 difference, and it doesn't change the fact that pup's magic accuracy is NOT on par with "decked out" BLM as he stated.

I don't care if the melee puppet is better, that's not the point. The point is that the BLM frame has a bad magic accuracy, which is the main limiting factor in endgame, and Toth said the opposite. Hell you can't land your 2K nuke on pudding with cap magic hit rate even so ...

[Toth]

Kirin and JoL are prime examples of mobs many BLMs have difficulty landing full damage on (ie needing the 320/120 setup) due to that huge INT so my earlier point stands. As Psion then pointed out, you can just switch to Valoredge for these two and rape them.

edit: Hell you can't land your 2K nuke on pudding with cap magic hit rate even so .

Pretty sure there are some SS around that say otherwise.

[Draylo]

That doesn't mean dINT is capped

Didn't mean to say it did. I was referring to what he said here:

Going to disagree with this, though it could have slightly changed with the manoeuvers update. You get signiifcally more int now, so it'll be enough to cap dINT, however you won't cap on anything above VT. It's still the best damaging frame on tough or lower mobs, but that's it.

Hardly it, I seriously doubt any of those DD frames would deal that much to that ZNM mob compared to the blm frame.

[Kametame]

PUP thread devolved into a flamewar as usual.

Regarding wargs with the DMG+17, since we're at such high delay already, tacking on a bit more for an extra attack should be a non-issue, right? Wouldn't we essentially wind up WS'ing more often in the long run? By my calculations using PUP's MAIII, the DMG+17 OAT wargs with a Rajas Ring give a total of 6.9 TP per fist, with 15 hits to get to >=100% TP.

This means 8 rounds of TPing normally, but under ideal conditions, we'd have about 40% of those swings from OAT.

Ideally:
floor(8 * 0.4) = 3 rounds should have OAT.

(6.9) * 3 = 20.7 TP on a round with OAT...
(6.9) * 2 = 13.8 TP on a round without OAT...

Assuming that three OAT rounds do proc (I shoved them at the beginning):

Round 1: 20.7
Round 2: 41.4
Round 3: 62.1
Round 4: 75.9
Round 5: 89.7
Round 6: 103.5

So, 6 rounds in total provided that OAT does proc 3 times. Could anyone verify this?

Also, albeit slim, we'd only need 5 rounds to hit 103.5% TP if OAT proc'd on all rounds. Incoming lolPUP5hitbuild.

[Tsuko_Asura]

Kirin and JoL are prime examples of mobs many BLMs have difficulty landing full damage on (ie needing the 320/120 setup) due to that huge INT so my earlier point stands.

You don't understand how magic accuracy works, at all.

[Toth]

I am quite aware how magic accuracy works ty. Regardless, unless you have a 75 PUP, you really should not be participating in this discussion.