Final Form Magian Weapons

[Thorny]

it's ok, best GK besides amano in pure damage

too bad it's still a GK and feeding tp is rarely a good idea on things you GK.. hence, meh

also, might only be 3 of those on odin but there are 7 amanos ^_^

[Yoky]

God I wanna kill who ever in SE decided to have Wamura pet kills for PUP Pet: Attack+ weapons....good news is I am almost done at 15more >< Glad I didn't decide to go the Pet: Acc route :/

I did the Wamoura Princes, It does suck if you dont have a way to dispel, but Pulled out Vale Frame and slowly and painfully i took them down 1 by one.. .Just wait till you have to do pet kills on bombs...btw.. Bombs that explode don't count as a pet kill. I think i rather do Wamouras again

[cdgreg]

First off thanks again for tips on the final trial of surya's staff. I ended up killing Yag smn eles in west saru s. There were 3 in close proximity by giddues, took me about 2.5 in-game light days alternating 1 shot kills with aero or fire 4 depending on the element of the ele.

I'm thinking about Macc dark staff next for sleep/drain/aspir. The last few trials for it say 200+ status effect dark. Has anyone done this? Does that mean I can spam bio or sleep I > sleep 2 > wake/repeat and each bio cast or sleep will count?

[Tarubaby]

I'm thinking about Macc dark staff next for sleep/drain/aspir. The last few trials for it say 200+ status effect dark. Has anyone done this? Does that mean I can spam bio or sleep I > sleep 2 > wake/repeat and each bio cast or sleep will count?

Afflicted with Dark Status Ailment. I saw this as cast blind and kill. But I'm just starting this specific trial so I could be wrong.

[cdgreg]

Afflicted with Dark Status Ailment. I saw this as cast blind and kill. But I'm just starting this specific trial so I could be wrong.

Meh that would be sort of sucky. Let know once u figure it out for sure. Thanks.

[Neosutra]

it's ok, best GK besides amano in pure damage

too bad it's still a GK and feeding tp is rarely a good idea on things you GK.. hence, meh

also, might only be 3 of those on odin but there are 7 amanos ^_^

Not trying to start an argument here, but wasnt the OAT high base damage Great Katana worked out to beat event the lvl 80 Amano?

Higher DoT and 40% more WS frequency, at the cost of 15-20% less damage on WS and 2.5 procs.

I dont see how Amano could compare to that. The only thing bad about that weapon is TP feed, but even that isnt "extreme".

[Atoreis]

So what combo of daggers is best for DNC(with saber and w/o)?
Is realy Auric dual wield better then 6 str 16att(Kila is also 11daley lower)?
Is store TP+8 dagger breaking any tiers with and w/o /sam?
Isnt Kila with def down best on everything it can proc and there is no drg with angon or other jobs with def down weapon?

Whats come in my minds are:

Auric/2-3
Auric/def.down
Auric/Kila
Kila/2-3
Kila/def.down
Kila/Kila?
OAT(lower)/2-3?

[lolwut]

People who toss Mikey's Silver Nuggets should be administered an electric shock. Too many times I've heard "Oh, what are those for? I tossed because I couldn't AH or NPC them."

I'm on the verge of tossing the 4 I have, since I can't find a buyer and I intend to leave Sam at 75.

[urat]

So what combo of daggers is best for DNC(with saber and w/o)?
Is realy Auric dual wield better then 6 str 16att(Kila is also 11daley lower)?
Is store TP+8 dagger breaking any tiers with and w/o /sam?
Isnt Kila with def down best on everything it can proc and there is no drg with angon or other jobs with def down weapon?

Whats come in my minds are:

Auric/2-3
Auric/def.down
Auric/Kila
Kila/2-3
Kila/def.down
Kila/Kila?
OAT(lower)/2-3?

We have no idea about Auric because we don't know how much DW it gives. If it, AF3 neck and the belt are all 5% Dw or just sum up to 15% they allow a dnc to hit an unprecedented x10 attack speed (80% haste + 50% DW)

However other than that, my combos I found for 24% haste + 40% DW here are the combos I found in order from best dagger to worst, not including auric because we just don't know how much DW it has.

Fusetto + Para OA3 = 286.2
Saber dance = 325.95~294.15

Cinquedea(>100) + Para OA3 = 251.69
Saber dance = 291.85~1.05+259.72

Cinquedea(<100) + Para OA3 = 241
Saber dance = 279.59~248.72

Twashtar + Cinquedea(>100) = 230
Saber dance = 287.5~241.5

Twashtar + Para OA3 = 230.3
Saber dance = 267.05~237.65

Twashtar + Fusetto = 222.6 base
Saber dance = 278.25~244.73

Twashtar + Cinquedea(<100) = 220.8
Saber dance = 276~231.84


If auric is anything half decent then hands down auric with offhand OAthrice dagger is the best combo, no comparison.

Otherwise STP Fusetto with offhand OAthrice is what you want to aim for for maximizing TP.

[diasetsu]

I'd say it's still the best non spharai option at the moment. The DA rate has really upped from the occ attack twice version. Kine is making is making some adjustments to make the extra attacks plug in more accurate, but at the moment we're estimating about a 75% double kick rate.

After reading about Ridillators(Ursine Claws w/ OA2-3) having such a higher proc rate on footwork than the expected 50%, I was very curious to figure out why. I'm pretty lazy and was hoping someone else would have done the testing to explain it, but after searching for a post about it and finding nothing, I spent all weekend doing tests myself.

For all my tests I used Fortifications attacking for at least 500 rounds. If a campaign battle ended before 500 attack rounds, I just did a full second round of campaign. Originally I was just going to parse normal fights, but quickly noticed in a short 50 rounds that a counter occurring in the same time frame as a kick was counted as an extra attack.

Test 1: Footwork w/ no weapon, no DA, no KA+gear, expected rate w/ 5/5 KA merits 17.5%; 72 extra attacks in 407 rounds, 17.69% DA rate. I didn't hit the 500 rounds i wanted per test, but Kick Attack rate w/ merits has been pretty well tested and I was really too lazy to do another campaign for 98 more sample rounds.

Test 2: Footwork w/ no weapon, mnk/war, brutal earring and melee hose, expected rate w/ KA merits 34.13%; 328 extra attacks in 748 rounds, 43.85% DA rate. After this test I spent awhile figuring out why just like OAT rate, DA effected footwork in some way differently then what was suspected.

I know with normal weapons attacks per round is DA% plus the remaining percentage multiplied by OAT%. H2H's multi attack order is;
Fist 1 punch, Fist 2 punch, Fist 1 chance of DA, Fist 2 chance of DA, Fist 1 OA2-3 chance, Fist 2 OA2-3 chance, Kick.

I theorized that footwork, probably not acting as intended uses the normal H2H coding to decide extra attacks. Under footwork the order of operations is;
Kick, (Fist 1) chance of DA, (Fist 2) chance of DA, (Fist 1) chance of OA2-3, (Fist 2) chance of OA2-3, chance of job ability kick attack.

Kick attack rate from abilties, merits, or gear work like DA in a sense, but don't get factored in twice because in a normal attack round you only can KA once, and only after all other attacks are decided.

Going back to test 2 where the results were not as expected and using the order of operations I theorized the footwork formula to be based on I got;
Expected rate 44%, tested rate 43.85%. These numbers seemed to match much more nicely and so I did my other 2 tests using my expected percentage instead of the normal expected percentage.

Test 3: Footwork w/ Ursine Claws(OA2-3) and KA merits only, expected rate 79.38%; 543 extra attacks in 686 rounds, 79.15% DA rate. Theorized footwork formula still seems to be working well.

Test 4: Footwork w/ Ursine Claws(OA2-3), mnk/war, brutal earring, melee hose and KA merits, expected rate 86%; 613 extra attacks in 712 rounds, 86.09%.

So I don't know if it's intentional or not, but I am pretty certain that under footwork DA and OAT are factored in twice. There may be some way different way footwork is computed but these numbers convinced me that this is how it works. I was hoping that the earlier reports were just wrong because after putting in 10hr days to finish Spharai as fast as I could I really didn't want to have marginally better damage output as someone who could make these.

Have fun making your footwork builds, and don't forget to keep a regular build too for when footwork gets dispelled. Now someone get me solid testing on Counter II that isn't against a mob that can itself counter please, I am done with trials and testing for awhile.

[Fottiti]

Not trying to start an argument here, but wasnt the OAT high base damage Great Katana worked out to beat event the lvl 80 Amano?

Higher DoT and 40% more WS frequency, at the cost of 15-20% less damage on WS and 2.5 procs.

I dont see how Amano could compare to that. The only thing bad about that weapon is TP feed, but even that isnt "extreme".

It doesn't have 40% higher WS frequency (depending on SJ but even /nin its not 40%) and the difference in average WS will be considerably more than 20% unless you are fighting something with extremely high defense or you are extremely under buffed.

I'm not saying OAT isn't better (although I do doubt it), I'm just pointing out the figures you've produced to make a point are incorrect.

[Neosutra]

It doesn't have 40% higher WS frequency (depending on SJ but even /nin its not 40%) and the difference in average WS will be considerably more than 20% unless you are fighting something with extremely high defense or you are extremely under buffed.

I'm not saying OAT isn't better (although I do doubt it), I'm just pointing out the figures you've produced to make a point are incorrect.

40% OAT rate will be 40% more WSs minus added WS ability delay and weapon delay difference. Once you start getting higher haste (near cap) WS ability delay starts to matter, but in non haste samba cases (just marches/haste) 40% more attack rounds = ~40% more WSs.

Amano has 27 more base damage, WS damage formula:

Damage = floor( (D + fSTR + WSC) x fTP)

OAT Weapon rank = 8. So upper bound on fStr is 16.
lvl80 Amano weapon rank = 10. So upper bound on fStr is 18.

WSC will be the same for both, as will fTP, and the floor value.

So for OAT damage during WS: (Let's say 140 str during WS), and gekko has a .75 str mod, with 1.5625 (+.1 from gorget)

Damage = .83((71 + 16 + .75*140) x 1.6625 = 264.936

@ Capped pDif (2.2), that's 582.8 damage for OAT.

lvl80 Amano damage during WS:

Damage = .83((98 + 18 + .75*140) x 1.6625 = 304.95

@ capped pDif, lvl80 Amano WS damage = 670.89

582.8/670.89 = .869.

That's less than 14% difference in WS damage, not "way more than 20%".

So with 40% more WS (or even 30% more WS at worst case) and only 14% less WS damage, please tell me again how OAT loses to relic?

Now obviously the math doesnt factor in +25 acc allowing you to use different food or gear, 2.5 procs, and double light SCs, but you can see that relic isnt blowing OAT out of the water and will be losing in total damage depending on the circumstances.

[FailureMidgard]

40% OAT rate will be 40% more WSs minus added WS ability delay and weapon delay difference. Once you start getting higher haste (near cap) WS ability delay starts to matter, but in non haste samba cases (just marches/haste) 40% more attack rounds = ~40% more WSs.

Amano has 27 more base damage, WS damage formula:

Damage = floor( (D + fSTR + WSC) x fTP)

OAT Weapon rank = 8. So upper bound on fStr is 16.
lvl80 Amano weapon rank = 10. So upper bound on fStr is 18.

WSC will be the same for both, as will fTP, and the floor value.

So for OAT damage during WS: (Let's say 140 str during WS), and gekko has a .75 str mod, with 1.5625 (+.1 from gorget)

Damage = .83((71 + 16 + .75*140) x 1.6625 = 264.936

@ Capped pDif (2.2), that's 582.8 damage for OAT.

lvl80 Amano damage during WS:

Damage = .83((98 + 18 + .75*140) x 1.6625 = 304.95

@ capped pDif, lvl80 Amano WS damage = 670.89

582.8/670.89 = .869.

That's less than 14% difference in WS damage, not "way more than 20%".

So with 40% more WS (or even 30% more WS at worst case) and only 14% less WS damage, please tell me again how OAT loses to relic?

Now obviously the math doesnt factor in +25 acc allowing you to use different food or gear, 2.5 procs, and double light SCs, but you can see that relic isnt blowing OAT out of the water and will be losing in total damage depending on the circumstances.

Did you really just assume Amano would be using Gekko?

[CDF]

"40% OAT = 40% more WS" (disregarding WS delay and all other things being equal) should be considered only an upper bound, where the DA or TA rate is 0 and the number of hits to get to 100 TP is high.

[FailureMidgard]

40% OAT rate will be 40% more WSs minus added WS ability delay and weapon delay difference. Once you start getting higher haste (near cap) WS ability delay starts to matter, but in non haste samba cases (just marches/haste) 40% more attack rounds = ~40% more WSs.

Amano has 27 more base damage, WS damage formula:

Damage = floor( (D + fSTR + WSC) x fTP)

OAT Weapon rank = 8. So upper bound on fStr is 16.
lvl80 Amano weapon rank = 10. So upper bound on fStr is 18.

WSC will be the same for both, as will fTP, and the floor value.

So for OAT damage during WS: (Let's say 140 str during WS), and gekko has a .75 str mod, with 1.5625 (+.1 from gorget)

Damage = .83((71 + 16 + .75*140) x 1.6625 = 264.936

@ Capped pDif (2.2), that's 582.8 damage for OAT.

lvl80 Amano damage during WS:

Damage = .83((98 + 18 + .75*140) x 1.6625 = 304.95

@ capped pDif, lvl80 Amano WS damage = 670.89

582.8/670.89 = .869.

That's less than 14% difference in WS damage, not "way more than 20%".

So with 40% more WS (or even 30% more WS at worst case) and only 14% less WS damage, please tell me again how OAT loses to relic?

Now obviously the math doesnt factor in +25 acc allowing you to use different food or gear, 2.5 procs, and double light SCs, but you can see that relic isnt blowing OAT out of the water and will be losing in total damage depending on the circumstances.

"40% OAT = 40% more WS" (disregarding WS delay and all other things being equal) should be considered only an upper bound, where the DA or TA rate is 0 and the number of hits to get to 100 TP is high.

For now, this is all assuming a 6hit. Both weapons afaik have the ability to be used in a 5hit, however.

Ok, done with other shit, so I'll type more now, but CDF is correct here. With a 40% chance to OAT, you have a ~29% chance to overshoot by 1hit, so you're really only getting about 71% efficiency out of the +40%, meaning +28% WS rate. Next, Amano swings ~6% faster (assuming both are running Pole Grip). Next, you improperly applied the WSC alpha to the base damage, which actually furthers the gap, actual WS calculations (pre-overwhelm I guess):

OAT: Damage = (71 + 16 + [.75*140]*.83) x 1.6625 = 289.275 x 2.2 = 636.405
Amano: Damage = (98 + 18 + [.6*140]*.83) x 3.1 = 573.5 x 2.2= 1261.7
1261.7/636.405=1.98, nearly double the damage.

Next, the 2.5 proc rate is roughly a ~21% increase in non-WS damage, yes that's almost equivalent to piercing vulnerability on birds. Here's per swing average:

OAT, capped pDIF : (71 + 10) * 2.2 = 178
Amano, capped pDIF : (98 + 10) * 2.2 * 1.21 = 287
287.496/178 = 1.61

Ok, so
Amano WSes roughly 100% harder..
OAT weapon WSes roughly 20% more often.
Amano hits roughly 60% harder.
OAT weapon hits roughly 30% more often.

As a side note, the times that Gekko does outperform Kaiten, there's a few things worth mentioning:
1. TP Feed is perhaps worth considering (you're probably fighting some HNMish thing. Even Ein bosses if you're zerging, Kaiten performs better).
2. Amano barely wins, or loses in these situations. I actually did prefer Hagun to Amano on some fights at 75 (Odin especially comes to mind) due to low pDIF. Amano's Gekkos are not the least bit impressive, I'll agree with you there.
3. I also prefer to switch off Sam to a mage/support/etc in most situations like this, because while I fully realize and have shown many people in my LSes with parses that a Sam can easily do more damage than any BLM can hope to do, I also realize how much more stress it puts on both the Sam and the tank party. Tiamat is a great example. Sam works, don't get me wrong, and a decent Sam shouldn't be touched by any MP based DD, even only DDing on the ground, but you suddenly start allowing him to TP/etc (and have to be really careful with counters, or be /nin), and it's just a lot messier.

Anyway, Amano will destroy the OAT from everything I've seen and done (pure math, pure parses, and analysis of parses - average hit/average WS/etc) in situations where melee shines (Ein, Dyna, yada yada).

{Edit: Alpha on WS is .85 now, it's not going to change the huge margin though...I messed up on the 2.5 multiplier too...did 2.5/12 instead of 1.5/12, my bad, so 12.5% increase instead of 21%...in any case, it still leaves Amano doing more dot than OAT as well as significantly more WS damage.}

[xIndustrialxAngelx]

I don't mean to interrupt for something an interesting debate - but for anyone without an Amano, would the high base OAT gkt, be the best choice of gkt, to have overall?

Or just better off using a high base Raden gkt? or 5 hit Keito gkt?

[Neosutra]

Ah ya I swapped the alpha value out, that does change things.

Thanx for working it out, I was getting pretty disheartened with Relic progress and magians (if OAT just keeps getting higher and higher base damage).

[CDF]

After reading about Ridillators(Ursine Claws w/ OA2-3) having such a higher proc rate on footwork than the expected 50%, I was very curious to figure out why. I'm pretty lazy and was hoping someone else would have done the testing to explain it, but after searching for a post about it and finding nothing, I spent all weekend doing tests myself.

...

Interesting results and the model seems viable enough, a better explanation than what I've seen. Awareness of this might be the nail in the coffin, pending a future version update, for monks going gaga over Footwork though.

[Onorgul]

Next, the 2.5 proc rate is roughly a ~21% increase in non-WS damage, yes that's almost equivalent to piercing vulnerability on birds.

Could you please explain where that 21% comes from? Thank you.

[Chen]

been doing the blm trial for lv. 80 BLM thunder staff, need to do 250 thunder kills finishing blows. can a group of BLMs do this, and say BLM C does the kill shot for 1k dmg thun3, does all blms get credit?

edit: @ above poster, failure edited his post

he had orginally calculated the extra damage as 2.5normal hit dmg x proc rate, then corrected himself since the extra damage is only the increase

(2.5-normal 1) 1.5 x proc rate, from that i guess they're assuming amanos proc rate is about 8%? anyway, that's the general idea.