Final Form Magian Weapons

[Atoreis]

If CCL did 23 WSs in Ein then DRK did probably around 12-13.
Probably 3-4 with souleater. Saying 1750 is avg in this case means his normal one were about 1200-1300 and War had 1629 avg could also means nothing. One RR made too late overkilling the mob will result 600 dmg RR which in sample of 10-15 WS broke avg by a lot (kinda like souleater guillo make avg on that low sample higher). So taking avg 1750 guillo from that low sample and adding 450-500 dmg to avg by adding 30 dmg to base weapon (by Nameless) is not only wrong math, but also wrong logic from start.

EDIT: Going from 91 to 121 on scythe will be about (taking numbers from a memory based on gear that Magicide posted as his WS) 21% increase in ws dmg maximum but probably less. So probably around 1450 avg guillo w/o souleater for Magicite on this Ein.

[ccl]

Got some time to do some more ws so I tried some at 300 tp naked and with gorget, I should have more time to do the 200tp ws naked and with gear later today or tomorrow.

300tp naked

Spoiler: show

2799
2822
2762
2751
2709
2741
2799
2769
2785
2690

300 tp naked+snow

Spoiler: show

2852
2830
2815
2855
2861
2844
2755
2812
2777
2870

[NynJa]

So its not that all empyrean WS's are 9999 dmg ones, SE's just stroking sam cock once again. Probably threw in an extra 0 on Fudo's mod somewhere along the line, i'll laugh if it gets fixed.

[Byrthnoth]

Well, were these Sneak Attacked on level 0 mobs?

Assuming they were, any "doubling" happens before the fTP boost of Snow Gorget. Basically "Does double damage" just means it has ridiculously high fTP. I'd roughly guess the 300TP fTP is 6.
Something seems off though, because those aren't very different than your Einherjar ones (where you wore gear and were fighting Doomed, but didn't sub THF and Sneak Attack all of them I'd assume). Doomed have low defense and take bonus damage from slashing, but that still makes me suspect the weaponskill has an impressive pDIF boost.

[ccl]

yes, those were SAed, also on abyssea nms I did duo/trio yesterday, it seemed to get closer/on par to gekko, sometime weaker, if you have any Idea to test if it has a pdif boost or anything else, I should have time to pretty much test anything.

[Byrthnoth]

http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/680...-bonus-Testing
The first post has the approximate method to use, I feel. It will be a little hard until we know the mods of the WS though.

You may want to try to nail down a naked max 100TP SA-Fudo damage, a geared max 100TP SA-Fudo damage no-neck, and then a geared max 100TP SA-Fudo with gorget. If you tell us what those were with all of your stats (STR/AGI/VIT/DEX/INT/MND/CHR) in each case, we could calculate exactly what the mods and fTP are at 100TP. From there, you could go WS some crabs and approximate its pDIF boost.

[ccl]

ok, I'll try to get those max number first then I'll try those other thing.

[FailureMidgard]

Got some time to do some more ws so I tried some at 300 tp naked and with gorget, I should have more time to do the 200tp ws naked and with gear later today or tomorrow.

300tp naked

Spoiler: show

2799
2822
2762
2751
2709
2741
2799
2769
2785
2690

300 tp naked+snow

Spoiler: show

2852
2830
2815
2855
2861
2844
2755
2812
2777
2870

2763 > 2827 (2763/n = 2827/(n+.1)) is a 4.3ish ftp @ 300. Regardless of the exact value, on top of this WS already being amazing normally, it scales pretty damn well with excess TP (for times you can pre-meditate, etc, etc). Just more icing on the cake...

Well, were these Sneak Attacked on level 0 mobs?

Assuming they were, any "doubling" happens before the fTP boost of Snow Gorget. Basically "Does double damage" just means it has ridiculously high fTP. I'd roughly guess the 300TP fTP is 6.
Something seems off though, because those aren't very different than your Einherjar ones (where you wore gear and were fighting Doomed, but didn't sub THF and Sneak Attack all of them I'd assume). Doomed have low defense and take bonus damage from slashing, but that still makes me suspect the weaponskill has an impressive pDIF boost.

Bonus slashing, Fighters Roll / DAs available, Overwhelm, Gear. (Those #s he just listed were naked) Doesn't seem off at all. I also have no idea what possible evidence you have for what you're saying with the doubling. If that were the case, it would be a difference that won't even break the margin of error with this sample size, so it's a pretty silly thing to say. Outside of gorget, doubling the ftp -is- doubling the damage also, so not sure what you're even getting at.

yes, those were SAed, also on abyssea nms I did duo/trio yesterday, it seemed to get closer/on par to gekko, sometime weaker, if you have any Idea to test if it has a pdif boost or anything else, I should have time to pretty much test anything.

Basing this statement on Kaiten - there is absolutely no need to test it unless you really want to pin down if it gets a 0 additional attack multiplier vs 10% or something. It's insanely obvious the difference between Gekko and Kaiten, where one requires attack, and one gets the multiplier. You go from Kaiten doing 2-3-x the damage when you have proper buffs vs weaker mobs to Gekko outperforming it. It's night and day - really need no specific tests since Gekko was figured out to know why it happened.

[Nameless]

BTW, for the "finder" of the magic haste cap, why is it you don't have said cap correct?

Because that figure was what was found originally by me until Kirschy did further test to pin point it. The idea is that most ppl thought there was not a magic cap back in 2007, and thought Apoc haste was the only way to achieve the 95% haste (93.75% it was, but at the time thought to be 95%). The thought was originated due to the fact that ppl thought soulvoice march x 2 + haste = 55% at the time, and thought haste cap at 70% (therefore needing 15% haste from gear to achieve), Hasso 10%, DB 15% are able to break the cap to reach 95%. However, none Apoc users with 18% haste in gears weren't able to hit that speed despite all signs pointing that they should be able to. Knowing magic haste has a cap resulted in Drks using Rune Chopper to achieve gear haste cap in order to reach 95%. I didn't fix the cap in my sig cuz I did not find the exact figure, and think 43.3% holds more of a historical significance. I ballparked to be 43.3 cuz that's what I got from reading the recast during my testing.

There is your story.

http://killingifrit.com/forums/topic.../page__st__200

Post 210 was when I first suspected the cap, then on page 12 I tested it.

But anyway, it is nothing special really as I know for sure someone else would find it out later as ppl dig more into the game mechanic around that time. But I just thought it is neat cuz everyone was so sure about their belief that songs + spell = 55% that no one suspected that. It serves as a reminder to me that nothing is for sure until everything is tested.

[Byrthnoth]

The .1 fTP bonus of the gorget is applied outside of the "doubling" term, thus the "doubling" is actually just large fTP. You can see this in the ridiculously small boost the WS gets from the gorget. It's obviously not actually 6, because he isn't doing twice (or more) as much damage as he did at 100TP. When we work out what the mods are and what the pDIF boost is, we'll know whether it's better to use Justice or Gorget on this.

[FailureMidgard]

The .1 fTP bonus of the gorget is applied outside of the "doubling" term, thus the "doubling" is actually just large fTP. You can see this in the ridiculously small boost the WS gets from the gorget. It's obviously not actually 6, because he isn't doing twice (or more) as much damage as he did at 100TP. When we work out what the mods are and what the pDIF boost is, we'll know whether it's better to use Justice or Gorget on this.

I understand what you're saying fine, you don't need to explain it. My point is that there is absolutely no proof or evidence to say it works either way, and the difference is within the marin of error for this test, so you're being premature with your assumptions, again. There is no basis in fact or math to make this claim yet, and when a gorget is adding 60+ damage at 300 TP, even with a 100% STRmod , and an 8.5 doubled ftp, Justice Torque -still- falls short. Realistically you're not WSing at 300TP very often, which helps Gorget even more.

[Motenten]

WSC @ 0.85 alpha = 34

Base damage: 103 + 19 (fStr) + 34 (WSC) = 156

Highest observed value (no gorget): 2822
Lowest observed value (no gorget): 2690
Highest supported value (with rounding): 2825

2822 / 156 / 3.15 = 5.743
2825 / 156 / 3.15 = 5.749
156 * 5.75 * 3.15 = 2,825.55
156 * 5.75 * 3.00 = 2,691


Highest observed value (w/gorget): 2870
Lowest observed value (w/gorget): 2755
Highest supported value (with rounding): 2893

2870 / 156 / 3.15 = 5.840
2893 / 156 / 3.15 = 5.887
156 * 5.85 * 3.15 = 2,874.69
156 * 5.85 * 3.00 = 2,737.8


Strongly implies 5.75 fTP, 5.85 with gorget.



And since I didn't go back and refigure fTP after reaching a conclusion on WSC last time:


@100 TP, no gorget:
Max observed: 1790 == 3.643
Max supported: 1796 == 3.655

@100 TP, w/gorget:
Max observed: 1837 == 3.738
Max supported: 1851 == 3.767

Implies 3.65 fTP, 3.75 with gorget.



I would guess that fTP at 200 would be ~4.70 (possibly skewed to favor the lower or higher end on TP).



Making estimations on the doomed from the Ein parse:

With 83+65 str, WSC should be 62. fStr is probably not higher than ~17, but there's a bit of wiggle room there. Will use that.

103 + 17 + 62 = 182

Doomed gets a 12.5% slashing bonus, and will add in Overwhelm's 19% (do they multiply or add? will just add to be conservative) for 31.5% total bonus.

Effective base damage = 182 * 1.315 = 239.33

fTP of 3.75 * 239.33 = 897.4875

Not counting the 3.7k one (200+ TP), damage ranged from 2113 to 2773. However there's also a clear gap between 2400 and 2500. If he was sam/war getting Fighter's Roll, it would be fairly easy to reach a 30% DA rate, and about 1/3 of the weaponskills are 2540 to 2800.

Implied pDifs: 2.35 - 3.09 for full range, which isn't happening. For 2113-2395, pDif range would be 2.35 - 2.67. Entirely possible (if unlikely), though conveniently all on the upper half of the pDif curve.

Edit: If slashing bonus and Overwhelm multiply, and if fStr hit 19, pDif range would be about 2.25-2.6.


Actually, that in and of itself is interesting, in conjunction with Failure's skepticism regarding the crit pDif spread not having many values below 3.0. Is it possible that one of the 'special' effects of the weaponskill is to generally only have pDif calculated for above cRatio, rather than both above and below?

[ccl]

For the ein parse, I was /war and I used red curry bun as food.

edit: as /war I have 89 base str.

[Motenten]

Ok, so fStr should have hit the 19 cap, then. If Overwhelm multiplies with the slashing bonus then I'd be more comfortable with the final output range, as it puts the min at ~2.25 pDif, which is the cRatio cap for 2-handed weapons. Still implies that it generally doesn't have pDif calculated for below cRatio.

[Quetz.Roark]

Sorry to distract from the math, but...

Roark - Quetz has a Maschu+1 (the WoE GA) if anyone on the server wants to bug him with Ukko's Fury questions. (And he'll probably be annoyed that I directed people to him, but whatever.)

rage, making me login to bg and test this, but w/e

Spoiler: show

bees in gustaberg
naked - sneak attack damage

1177
1155
1176
1181
1147
1186
1190
1166
1165
1180


naked - sneak attack damage with /breeze gorget

1216
1221
1230
1181
1242
1235
1244
1185
1208
1235

ukko's fury ws set - +54 str, +47 dex, +5 vit, -1 agi, -1 mnd, +1 chr - sneak attack /with breeze gorget

1392
1429
1405
1386
1399
1383
1380
1398
1438
1365
1403
1391

have no idea what the numbers come out to be, so if you have fun with that stuff have at it

as referring to that pic on ffxiah: no, it wasn't 2hour'd, was just some dicking around after i figured out it could self light.

and yes, it does do double damage..seems to be be around 5-10% proc rate

just went to wajaom and killed random colibri until i didnt get a double dmg/double attack/crit proc and came up with uf 1493 , rr 1250, kj 1325

and thanks for saying that about restraint, i really had no idea how it works, never really used it outside of a zerg

edit: as for it being a single or multi hit, im aiming towards it being multi hit..although i cant say 100%, as for when it seems to miss a hit, might just be me missing it and getting a double attack hit (3 tp return if i remember it right)

[orson]

Does the TP return on Ukku's indicate a 2 hit or 1 hit?

[Byrthnoth]

Okay, so first hit's fTP is around 2 at 100TP and WS mod is around 60% STR.

Raging Rush - 35% STR, 3 hits, 2 chances to DA. Average fTP with Gorget and 22% DA is 3.54. Can crit.
King's Justice - 50% STR, 3 hits, 2 chances to DA. Average fTP with Gorget and 22% DA is 3.54.
Ukko's Fury - ~50-70% STR, 2 hits, 2 chances to DA. Average fTP with Gorget and 22% DA is somewhere around the above two, maybe higher or maybe lower. Can crit.

Ukko's Fury is two hits and you can DA twice, so it's possible that the Double Damage you're seeing are times when you've DA'd twice or critted the main hit. That weaponskill should be the least consistent WS in the game, because (even without missing) it can range from 2 swings that don't crit to 4 swings that all crit.

[FailureMidgard]

Okay, so first hit's fTP is around 2 at 100TP and WS mod is around 60% STR.

I'm getting 2.4-2.5 for first hit's ftp...

[Byrthnoth]

Yeah, I got 2.2. I was just being conservative.

Wow, base damage is high enough now that GA users won't cap fSTR naked. Going to have to factor that in to the mod calculation. Roark, what is your base STR?

[Quetz.Roark]

Okay, so first hit's fTP is around 2 at 100TP and WS mod is around 60% STR.

Raging Rush - 35% STR, 3 hits, 2 chances to DA. Average fTP with Gorget and 22% DA is 3.54. Can crit.
King's Justice - 50% STR, 3 hits, 2 chances to DA. Average fTP with Gorget and 22% DA is 3.54.
Ukko's Fury - ~50-70% STR, 2 hits, 2 chances to DA. Average fTP with Gorget and 22% DA is somewhere around the above two, maybe higher or maybe lower. Can crit.

Ukko's Fury is two hits and you can DA twice, so it's possible that the Double Damage you're seeing are times when you've DA'd twice or critted the main hit. That weaponskill should be the least consistent WS in the game, because (even without missing) it can range from 2 swings that don't crit to 4 swings that all crit.

thanks for that...was really wondering why numbers were all over the place with it