Final Form Magian Weapons

[lolwut]

We go in with 5, and the 2PLDs that leech everyones run, plus random ninja

Thesmrtwun and Yoshifuru?

[Nameless]

I sense that it might be annoying that the pld or the nin get top 5 without really doing much (taking advantage of the stupid point system), but how do you feel if a Drg/blu or Drg/whm go in and kill stuff in an extremely fast rate provide that you pull? Wouldn't it actually make your run go faster? I understand you probably don't need help and you didn't ask for help, but undoubtedly you benefit from it time-wise. Would you feel better if that were the case?

Also, just a suggestion, why not invite the pld and the ninja into your perma and tell them to come as the desired job? I am sure they would be glad to do so.

[Gerkin]

Thesmrtwun and Yoshifuru?

yep and sohra, and maphesto. I put together a 5 man run last week, and had all 3 of the plds listed, and a pup come in right when we entered. It was pretty frustrating. The only thing i could think to do for next time is if it happens, just have my group exit the zone and say fk em.

[Yugl]

The problem is, your list is too easily stretched to encompass any situation where something gets easier. You could apply it to level 80 AV kills or Ein E-Bodies, because there's 'less work' involved. The key difference remains, in all the examples except perhaps your last one (which I don't necessarily agree with because I've seen plenty of people try to KS above their skill level and get wiped), WoE leeches do not have the ability to get the items without someone else doing the kill for them.

1. That's the point. People complaining solely on the grounds that someone gets something at the expense of someone else (Or by doing less work) is doing a disservice to themselves if they engage in these activities.

2. You're trying to make WoE leech more specific than the context in which it used. WoE leech can also apply to people capable of soloing for drops (Yet, not yield victory in the chamber).

[Laika]

On a slightly related note to the actual topic, Alfetta's blog was updated about Torwhatits (Dnc brd thf dagger) and Redemption (Colibri Scythe) but didn't really provide much info about the completed empyrean weapon since I guess the WS is pretty well known already

[lolwut]

I sense that it might be annoying that the pld or the nin get top 5 without really doing much (taking advantage of the stupid point system), but how do you feel if a Drg/blu or Drg/whm go in and kill stuff in an extremely fast rate provide that you pull? Wouldn't it actually make your run go faster? I understand you probably don't need help and you didn't ask for help, but undoubtedly you benefit from it time-wise. Would you feel better if that were the case?

Also, just a suggestion, why not invite the pld and the ninja into your perma and tell them to come as the desired job? I am sure they would be glad to do so.

It would honestly depend on the player's usefulness, we have picked up people to sac or nuke Berry's when going for a full clear. Of course, you also have to balance that against the current needs of the group in regards to coins, if you have two people within 6 of finishing GKT in your group you're not going to want someone else lotting decay. My group has 3 weapons (gun, h2h, gkt) that would have been completed within the last two weeks had it not been for randoms taking pouches/singles.

yep and sohra, and maphesto. I put together a 5 man run last week, and had all 3 of the plds listed, and a pup come in right when we entered. It was pretty frustrating. The only thing i could think to do for next time is if it happens, just have my group exit the zone and say fk em.

I actually haven't seen Sohra during one of our runs in a week. Maphesto is actually in my ls, so he tends to keep out of our runs.

[lolwut]

1. That's the point. People complaining solely on the grounds that someone gets something at the expense of someone else (Or by doing less work) is doing a disservice to themselves if they engage in these activities.

I understood your point, I just don't think it's valid. There is a tangible difference in my opinion, so we'll just have to disagree on that point.

2. You're trying to make WoE leech more specific than the context in which it used. WoE leech can also apply to people capable of soloing for drops (Yet, not yield victory in the chamber).

I'm using the context in which I mentioned it initially, someone who lacks the ability to clear at that time lotting the end drops of people who have that ability. Someone capable of soloing but not clearing should be soloing their own drops, not leeching them from people who clear.

[hexagram23]

On a slightly related note to the actual topic, Alfetta's blog was updated about Torwhatits (Dnc brd thf dagger) and Redemption (Colibri Scythe) but didn't really provide much info about the completed empyrean weapon since I guess the WS is pretty well known already

Actually there's not a ton of info on Quietus. Me and one other person posted info on the WS. I'm not counting the gimp JPN who got it first and did the shitty Campaign damage.

I wish this blog had some additional info. Granted I do have the WS but another opinion or point of view is welcome.

[FailureMidgard]

I'm not saying it's an "evil" move. The correlation is there (Though I should I have said <50% HP) because you do less work than the group and receive all the rewards.



There are multiple complaints people make against "leeches" in WoE; I'll demonstrate how the list correlates with two of them:
1. They do less work and receive all the rewards.
- When you bot, you do less work than another person and receive the "rewards" (Claiming the NM) It's less work for a red mage to solo most NMs than any other job, therefor anyone who solo's on RDM can't complain as well.
- When you claim an NM someone has been killing PHs for, you receive the reward (Claiming the NM/The NM appearing) When you claim an NM that you didn't have the last ToD for inside Abyssea and receive the reward, you obviously weren't sitting around waiting, and someone else may have been, so you can't complain (you didn't spend the requisite time waiting)
- When you receive an item without spending points (Or fewer points) because the LS treats it as trivial, you receive the reward without the original cost If you bought any item after prices bombed with Abyssea (HQ staves, anything that takes behe hides, sirens hair, divine logs, khroma ore, etc, etc, etc, you got it for less effort than everyone else. If you don't go toss the gil difference now, you have no right to complain)
- When you kill an NM someone else has been killing, you receive the rewards (drops) When you kill an NM with a 2hr when someone else has killed it without a 2hr
2. The individual would not have been capable of receiving the reward without X condition.
- It's arguable that many bot LSs would not have claimed had they not used bots Also, if you claim over anyone without a good claim ability...like a sam/thf, drg/sam, sam/drg, pup/smn, smn/sam, etc...you probably wouldn't have claimed if they had a good ability
- The person might not have the time to kill PH; nonetheless, they receive the benefits (NM being popped/claim)I'm really bored of this
- If the item weren't treated as trivial, then they might not have been able to receive the item (Not enough points) I honestly can't believe you even made this argument, relative value changes, trying to say that it doesn't is stupid as fuck
- If you kill an NM someone else has been killing (Best case example is NM @ 10%), one might argue that you could not have killed the NM without the effort of the individual that wipedOr you could have? I know for a fact when we killed another shell's AV from like 15-20%, it was infinitely harder than starting at 100%...stupid argument is stupid

Given these complaints, this list indeed does correlate with the problems associated with WoE.

Comments in line, the shit you are saying is ridiculous. You're trying to add your own personal view on morality to something when it's completely irrelevant. What makes you think a bot isn't putting effort in? People pay gil, money, or just flat out put work in programming it. Personally, I'd say it takes more to get a bot than to manually claim, so really if you claim over a bot, you have no right to complain either. Also, I dunno, watching bad people fail at killing XYZ NM I find to be quite hard...I get so bored I can't manage it, on the other hand, if I'm fighting it, I'm actually entertaining. When we used to fight Tiamat, we'd mule camp, and if we ended up losing claim, I really couldn't sit there and watch some terrible EU shell fight it for 60-90 minutes. And if they wiped, I most definitely wasn't there to pick up the slack.

I'm sorry, but you missed the key factor that pisses people off here - leeches are going there with the INTENT to profit off of the work of others. In maybe 1 of those examples is that true (someone WSes an NM while you kill PHs, then they claim)...the rest really aren't related at all. Coincidentally, that's the only thing on your list that even remotely pisses me off also...

[Yugl]

I understood your point, I just don't think it's valid. There is a tangible difference in my opinion, so we'll just have to disagree on that point.

I would say the moment you add other claims to the argument, you're not solely relying on that individual argument, which was the condition for its validity. We can simply disagree though.

Someone capable of soloing but not clearing should be soloing their own drops, not leeching them from people who clear.

WoE leeches do not have the ability to get the items without someone else doing the kill for them.

The only way you can make these statements consistent is by insisting that there is a distinction between the drops you mention in the first quote and the items you mention in the second quote. I believe you mean to distinguish between victory drops and drops off monsters. If that is the case, then (And I imagine you'll want to disagree with this inference) you lose premises for explaining why individuals should have to solo their drops (Not victory drops). It's no longer they're incapable of doing on their own using your definition of leech. The distinction in effort falls under the two categories. First, would involve people that participate in the battle with the LS they're "leeching." In this instance, the argument that they produce no effort; thus, they should not receive loot is flawed. Arguments of "less" effort have to be qualified by some definition of effort and you have to painstakingly demonstrate that each member of the LS (Or those receiving drops) produced more effort than the lone individual. Second, individuals that literally sit there and do nothing, yet lot correlate with the previously mentioned list (1-3) because there is a potential for rewards at no cost to the individual.

Comments in line, the shit you are saying is ridiculous. You're trying to add your own personal view on morality to something when it's completely irrelevant. What makes you think a bot isn't putting effort in? People pay gil, money, or just flat out put work in programming it. Personally, I'd say it takes more to get a bot than to manually claim, so really if you claim over a bot, you have no right to complain either. Also, I dunno, watching bad people fail at killing XYZ NM I find to be quite hard...I get so bored I can't manage it, on the other hand, if I'm fighting it, I'm actually entertaining. When we used to fight Tiamat, we'd mule camp, and if we ended up losing claim, I really couldn't sit there and watch some terrible EU shell fight it for 60-90 minutes. And if they wiped, I most definitely wasn't there to pick up the slack.

I'm sorry, but you missed the key factor that pisses people off here - leeches are going there with the INTENT to profit off of the work of others. In maybe 1 of those examples is that true (someone WSes an NM while you kill PHs, then they claim)...the rest really aren't related at all. Coincidentally, that's the only thing on your list that even remotely pisses me off also...

You see FM, you completely missed the point. My argument is that it's silly to rely solely on the argument that individuals receive more at less cost because it's a prevalent theme in FFXI. Therefore, you're right to assert that the argument leads to silly inferences because that is in fact what I'm getting you to do (See how manipulative I am?). In short, you activated my trap card (And you got pissed off doing it too).

I will disagree; however, with your argument of intent distinguishing the previously mentioned scenarios and WoE. If I use a bot, I do so with intent. If I sit there and wait for PHs to die while watching for the NM, I do so with intent. If I go to an NM that I KNOW IS CLAIMED, I have an intent to take it when they wipe (And an intent to kill it using the damage they have done rather than let it recover to full). When I go to an event because I know an item is free or even the act of accepting an item for free, I do so with intent.

[Aurara]

Just finished Kannagi, testing to come. Total time: 4 days of solid farming. fuck briareus and thank god for razed ruins lol
fuck my bandwith......

[FailureMidgard]

You see FM, you completely missed the point. My argument is that it's silly to rely solely on the argument that individuals receive more at less cost because it's a prevalent theme in FFXI. Therefore, you're right to assert that the argument leads to silly inferences because that is in fact what I'm getting you to do (See how manipulative I am?). In short, you activated my trap card (And you got pissed off doing it too).

I will disagree; however, with your argument of intent distinguishing the previously mentioned scenarios and WoE. If I use a bot, I do so with intent. If I sit there and wait for PHs to die while watching for the NM, I do so with intent. If I go to an NM that I KNOW IS CLAIMED, I have an intent to take it when they wipe (And an intent to kill it using the damage they have done rather than let it recover to full). When I go to an event because I know an item is free or even the act of accepting an item for free, I do so with intent.

Yes, botters bot with the intent to bot. They do NOT have the intent to profit off of other people's work. Do you not see the difference?
I already said watching others kill PHs is the one thing on your list that actually does irritate me, sarcastically I said coincidentally...it's not a coincidence at all.
When people go to an NM they know is claimed, they do have the intent to claim it as soon as it goes white, or they wipe. However, you are 100% offbase that they have the intent to profit off of the original claimer's work. The reason to watch and be ready to claim is so that nobody else can claim it first if they do wipe. It takes 1 person to hold Tiamat. If you aren't there watching the fight, and instead are waiting for your mule to say they wiped, ONE person can claim and hold over you, thus you don't get the claim at all. The intent is to kill the mob if possible, at all. The intent is NOT to leech off the work of the shell before. In fact, roughly 100% of the time, people that do this would rather the shell warp out at 100%, than wait until 20% for them to slowly wipe.
When you are now taking items that are obsolete/not as good for free/less points, yes, you are taking them perhaps because of that, but in no way was it your intent to get the same item others got at a less price - in fact, I will argue despite the ingame item being the same, you are NOT getting the same item, because it is less desirable for a reason. While a Valkyrie's Fork may still be a Valkyries Fork, it was the best polearm a dragoon can get, and it is now really just trash that looks cool on a mannequin. Trying to say that someone getting one now for less points has some malicious intent is just dumb.

Intent of some form or another is always there - intent to profit off of the work of others while doing nothing yourself is what is pissing people off, and it is not there in the vast majority of your examples. You are completely missing my point it seems, because your post didn't address this at all. And really, you expect far too much as far as clarity and articulation goes on a forum. I think it's pretty obvious it pisses people off because of what I said, and you're just dwelling on their exact wording of "getting more for less". Being efficient is getting more for less. Leeching is getting shit for other people's effort. There is a difference.

[Guitarman]

what numbers so far aurara?

[Langly]

what numbers so far aurara?

please

[Kilik]

my ws set isnt near complete yet but here. In Abyssea, RR+VV atmas. some colibri, some regular orobon, some t1 orobon NM.

Kilik                       65535    40.74 %      30/0   100.00 %    641/3321  2184.50
 - Blade: Hi                65535   100.00 %      30/0   100.00 %    641/3321  2184.50

[Malacite]

Niiiiiice. Grats on Kanngi! And GL with your +2's too :3

[Yugl]

Yes, botters bot with the intent to bot. They do NOT have the intent to profit off of other people's work. Do you not see the difference?
I already said watching others kill PHs is the one thing on your list that actually does irritate me, sarcastically I said coincidentally...it's not a coincidence at all.
When people go to an NM they know is claimed, they do have the intent to claim it as soon as it goes white, or they wipe. However, you are 100% offbase that they have the intent to profit off of the original claimer's work. The reason to watch and be ready to claim is so that nobody else can claim it first if they do wipe. It takes 1 person to hold Tiamat. If you aren't there watching the fight, and instead are waiting for your mule to say they wiped, ONE person can claim and hold over you, thus you don't get the claim at all. The intent is to kill the mob if possible, at all. The intent is NOT to leech off the work of the shell before. In fact, roughly 100% of the time, people that do this would rather the shell warp out at 100%, than wait until 20% for them to slowly wipe.
When you are now taking items that are obsolete/not as good for free/less points, yes, you are taking them perhaps because of that, but in no way was it your intent to get the same item others got at a less price - in fact, I will argue despite the ingame item being the same, you are NOT getting the same item, because it is less desirable for a reason. While a Valkyrie's Fork may still be a Valkyries Fork, it was the best polearm a dragoon can get, and it is now really just trash that looks cool on a mannequin. Trying to say that someone getting one now for less points has some malicious intent is just dumb.

Intent of some form or another is always there - intent to profit off of the work of others while doing nothing yourself is what is pissing people off, and it is not there in the vast majority of your examples. You are completely missing my point it seems, because your post didn't address this at all. And really, you expect far too much as far as clarity and articulation goes on a forum. I think it's pretty obvious it pisses people off because of what I said, and you're just dwelling on their exact wording of "getting more for less". Being efficient is getting more for less. Leeching is getting shit for other people's effort. There is a difference.

Fine, we'll run with your premise in a moment, but first, why am I asking too much clarification and articulation on a forum? I would expect that people have the best opportunity to carefully synthesize their premises and produce clarity on a forum more than most mediums. Unlike most forms of discussion, forums lack the expediency factor that hinders most discussions. One would think that forums are the best place for sincere discussion when both (or multiple) sides of the argument agree to civil terms.

You say that some of my examples don't work because in additions to the conditions originally based, you need an intent to profit off others. I'll accept your argument against botting, but then phrase the issue in another manner. You mentioned that botting comes with transaction costs to those higher in the chain (Those producing the bot and possibly the leaders that have to deal with the technical shit of setting up the bot). Are the members that then utilize the bot (And to strengthen the case, lets say said individual uses it more often and for personal reasons like KA camping) not in coherence with the complaint? They profit the most at less cost because they don't deal with the transaction costs. They might have been able to make the bot themselves and simply not done so because they know that others will handle the costs. Or even better, if the bot costs money, they may not have paid for the bot because they know their LS leader will handle the costs. Would you agree or disagree that this type of individual cannot complain about WoE?

What about an individual that gives his friend his account to use knowing that the individual will take up tasks that he would not do himself? For example, if I get a BRD account without NIN or WHM leveled, and the individual knows that I have an incentive to level his sub, then does that individual not have the right to complain when I take up the task for him? He receives more for less. His intent intends to benefit off my work without input.

Lets go back to the "no points spent issue." Here, you're taking an individual counterexample to my claim and make it absolute. This is in part my problem because I've said that anyone who does this is should not complain. What If I were to qualify my post in this way:
- The item is not free because it is obsolete or unwanted, but because everyone has the item
- The individual intentionally sets his "Wanted list" to a different item because he knows he's the only one left for the item
- The individual is a new member to the LS

It's not uncommon for top tier shells to give new members free gear because no one else could use it. This circumvents your "obsolete" argument because the value of the item can hold the same value as it did when other members received theirs. Since they're a new member and receiving the item for free, we can assume they put less effort into getting the item than others have in the past. If the individual does not put the item on his wanted list because he knows he will receive it one way or another, he intentionally plans to profit off the work of others. You might feel urged to counter this by specifying the effort to the individual event itself, but then you have to convincingly make a paradigm for assessing effort in an event. After all, some people might say that healers put less effort into an event than DDs that tank (Not my argument, but something someone might say). In order to make your claim suffice, you need to show that there is a legitimate system for assessing effort such that you can prove their statement true or false.

With regards to claiming a nearly dead mob, what if the LS kills faster than the LS in waiting and the only reason they wipe is because of a ridiculous move on the part of the NM? For example, consider a case in which an LS successfully, and quickly, gets PW to 25% HP. If the LS fighting it dies because of Astral Flow and the waiting LS finishes it off, are members of the LS that finished PW replicating the dynamics of someone "leeching" WoE? They get more for less (Both the pop and the dead forms). They sat there with an intent to kill PW (If we cannot agree upon this being the case, we'll assume it's the case) in hopes that the LS would wipe after Astral flow, so they intended to profit off the work of others while doing nothing.

Finally, do I piss you off? I ask you for strategies for NMs all the time (And we did atma-rock EE2x in addition to Kuku+Warbler+RR Atma action that night). I do much less work than you when it comes to making strategies. I intent to profit off the work of others who have fought the NM (Otherwise, I would simply try it myself until I get something that works). In short, should people who ask for strategies on BG not be allowed to complain about WoE?

[FailureMidgard]

Not going to quote all that, apologies if I miss something. Let's start with your botting argument. I'll go ahead and extend this to say that in 99.9% of shells (even 6man groups) the "leaders" put more work in than anyone else. When I was on Midgard and had shitty gear, I organized a salvage group. It was mostly good friends, with a few outside people that became good friends. I never took more than anyone else, and was pretty much as fair as I could be, but even in a group with nothing but good friends (4 of which I'd know for 4 years), I still put in far more work, reading through pages of threads on BG, researching what dropped where and how it all worked, etc. During the run I'd sit there with multiple sites open to reference and make sure we were doing the right thing. What's the point of this story? Your botting analogy is bogus, and is going back to a different issue, that the "leader", official or not, will -ALWAYS- put more work and effort in than the members. Maybe we should just say only LS leaders have a right to complain. No, I don't actually feel this way - but being a leader pretty much blows, and there have definitely been a lot of times where I got quite annoyed at having to hold people's hands through shit. It's not quite as bad as leeching though...
Anyway, going back to the botting thing, a lot of bots are bought with gil, and presumably every LS member is losing payouts to cover that gil. Sure, new members join later and "profit" off of the shell having the bot - but again, this isn't a botting specific thing. New members join successful non-botting shells and ride their success also. We can just hate on new members, but really, it's the fault of veteran members quitting that even makes new members a necessity.
But I don't see how any of this relates to WoE. I still feel that if someone goes to WoE with plans to sit back and watch and lot coins, they have a malicious intent. Is it possible for someone in a LS to act this way also? Sure, and I'll fucking kick them out of any shell I'm a leader in. But most people don't sit here and plan to fuck their LS leaders over (at least, not in my experience).
Same thing goes for account sharing. You can be malicious about it, or you can avoid that. I had a friend who barely logged on for a good 1-2 years, yet kept his account active, and he basically "gave" it to me, but said he may come back and didn't know. I used his account for a long time, leveled his jobs and subjobs, got him gear, etc. I also made use of his account as an Aery mule, as extra Abyssea stones back when I needed them, to help me finish relic trials faster, etc. He came back about 1-2 months ago. I don't resent him because I leveled shit for him. He didn't fake-quit in order to get me to do shit for him. There isn't malicious intent here. On the other hand, if he had said he was quitting, I got the account and leveled shit in 2 weeks, then he came back and changed his PW on me (I still have his PW and also made use of his char since him coming back to finish my Masamune), ya, it'd be pretty asshole, but I guess most friends don't do that to each other? Do you really know someone who quit with the sole intent of having others better their character for them?
I'm not even going to touch your points spent issue. Sounds to me like whatever LS you're referring to has a shit-tastic item distribution system that should be evaluated. Yea, we would give E-Bodies and the like to new members too, because all of our older members are pretty decked out...but the few items the older members wanted pretty much went to older members (D-Ring, Shadow Ring, Valhalla). We never had newer members complain, we never had older members complain...I guess it worked out pretty fairly. If you're saying assume that a distribution system has a flaw, it's wrong to take advantage of that flaw...I agree to a point. I think a member should point out the flaw to the leaders, explain why it's bad, and if the leaders refuse to acknowledge or fix it, then fuck em and take advantage of it all you want. On the other hand, if you try to snake in and profit for yourself...well, that's fucked up and wrong. But in the end, get a better distribution system.
Your PW example is odd, and is probably one of the few times that I'd agree with you on it being in a similar boat to this WoE mechanic. As far as I know (sorry, I could be wrong), no shell that has killed PW has kept it claimed through the entire final form (I know we didn't), and instead expects it to go white on Astral Flows. As that is a common strategy, it does perhaps fall into a category of essentially piggy-backing off of others. On the other hand, AV you have 1 shot at, and unless you have 2 zerg allies up and ready, once he regens from bracelet mode (at least at 80), it was pretty much over, so taking it at 20% when a shell wipes is different. But you're now moving from very general ideas to one very specific mob that I'd be surprised to hear has even been popped once since the level 85 increase.

And no, you don't piss me off...I share information to help people out, I post on and read these forums because it is enjoyable to me. While you may be benefiting off of my time, or another posters time, you are not depriving us of what we were doing with our time. Me and my LS/friends still got everything we expected to get when we put the time in, and I willingly came here and spent further time posting (and received some form of enjoyment/entertainment while doing so, otherwise I wouldn't post here).

Finally, I didn't say you're asking too much, I said you're expecting too much. Wanting it to be the case, and honestly expecting everyone to be crystal clear with their concepts are 2 entirely different things, and I feel it is unrealistic to expect every poster to be so clear. I've found while typing this post, that my last definition or whatnot was not clear enough - it is not just intent to profit off of someone else's actions, but that along with denying them their expected outcome that makes it a sore point. And I still feel that most of your original examples are nowhere near as similar as you want them to be. I will grant PW, but that is literally the only NM (and really, if there's an accepted strategy that doesn't involve letting it go white, I'll say PW doesn't even count) that this is the case for, and you can't make a general statement about taking an NM someone wipes too, and find 1 example where it fits, then claim that your original statement is thus correct. It just doesn't work that way when 99% of the NMs it does not in fact fit.

Again, sorry if I missed any specific points, or if I rambled off topic a bit, but I think most people have every right to be upset at WoE leeches. I also agree with whichever posters said if someone comes in and actually earns a chest - power to them. It'd annoy me still, but I don't think it would be -wrong- of them to do so. It is however, quite wrong to go in, do nothing, and lot coins.

[Wakabo]

Fucking wall of text. Tldr?

[Thorny]

The funny part is that all the people defending leeches are those without 4 competent friends or a competent linkshell to arrange their own runs. Just sayin' bros~