Final Form Magian Weapons

[Thorny]

Key items are like 50% from T1.. if you were to assume they're 20%, you're still looking at 30 min per key item or 90 min per pop while keeping TEs up for a trio. Granted, farming key items from gold chests gets you hadhayosh and carabosse pops, but it'll take you significantly more than 90 minutes to get a briareus set on average from them.. the distribution is always screwy. You end up wasting key items because you get >3 of the same before 1 of another one, you waste time farming more gold boxes when you could just be killing the one NM, and you get less time extensions on the whole. It's only practical in Tahrongi, and that's just because the NMs there have an absolutely retarded setup to manually farm.

[Atoreis]

Key items are like 50% from T1.. if you were to assume they're 20%, you're still looking at 30 min per key item or 90 min per pop while keeping TEs up for a trio. Granted, farming key items from gold chests gets you hadhayosh and carabosse pops, but it'll take you significantly more than 90 minutes to get a briareus set on average from them.. the distribution is always screwy. You end up wasting key items because you get >3 of the same before 1 of another one, you waste time farming more gold boxes when you could just be killing the one NM, and you get less time extensions on the whole. It's only practical in Tahrongi, and that's just because the NMs there have an absolutely retarded setup to manually farm.

Thx.

[Kilik]

I'm assuming you were pointing to Failure and calling him a moron? Pretty sure I agreed with your farming method.

Atories, I'd suggest gearing up your NIN if you say its gimp. Assuming you have RR+VV atmas, NIN's killspeed will be fine to keep up TEs and you will have access to a lot of Red !! triggers on NMs. Seems to be the best answer if you are limited to 3 people and your luck on key items is as bad as you say.

[Thorny]

Failure isn't a moron. I was talking about having 12 people at the same NM.. 4 at each, spam until all have key item, rotate, repeat, rotate, briareus. This cuts your farming time required by at least 1/3, and by as much as 1/2 if you have proper jobs to put WAR NIN RDM BRD at each.

Really though, I'd put LS empyreans on the same level as sponsored relics nowadays.. it doesn't cut down on the man-hours involved vs lowman and unless you're planning on getting a weapon for everyone in your shell it's using other people's time for only your benefit. Of course, doing one for everyone has the obvious drawback of useless leeches thinking they deserve it, but eh.. just another drawback.

[FailureMidgard]

^This guy's a moron, and his shell is pretty inefficient apparently.


I kind of doubt that, as just killing the NMs + 6-8 mobs during the 3 min repop is pushing your luck for positive time. If you cap amber, you're looking at ~45:45:10 ratio.. if a time chest is 1/8 chance for blue and chest rate is 95%, you get one chest per 18.5 mobs. Given the plain NM fights take ~3min each and 3 briareus is 30 min, you'd need to get 12 chests in 45 minutes or 5 mobs per minute to maintain time. If you change ratio to 80:10:10 it's only 2.8 mobs per minute, which you can easily keep up with. The former is certainly doable, but trio? You're getting yourself a pretty big risk, especially considering people are likely to afk some over the course of a 20h farm.

I'm confused where you got your numbers from...1/8 on TE? It's always seemed to be pretty even distribution to me once azure is capped, so 1/5 TE, Exp, Cruor, Temp, Restore. I haven't actually counted or anything, but it feels really close to that from all the cleaving I've done. Granted it's random, so sometimes you get shit luck, but other times we get 6 TEs in a single pull.

I guess I kinda disregarded the change in rate of blue chests...but even so, when I've been farming in Konschtat still trying to get a PDT ring, I have capped azure/ruby/amber, kill NMs regularly, and run around the zone a decent bit, and still end up positive on time with me+2boxed rdm (then again, most NM fights are 20-30 seconds, quite often faster than normal mobs), so I dunno...I think 3 minutes is slow unless you're doing every red WS, in which case it's a fair estimate, but I don't see why you'd say 50% KI, should be way higher, unless your proposed makeup is like war/brd/rdm, in which case the war can cover like 8/13?

And Kilik, I think he's calling you inefficient for taking 12 people to farm Briareus pops.

[Thorny]

TEs always seemed a bit rarer to me, and gold/red chests certainly aren't even distribution(between 'types' for gold). I don't know, could be even.. still seems that if you're popping NMs constantly it's a bit wasteful to cap amber for what.. maybe 5 usable key items over the course of the farm :/

As far as key item, went on side of caution since people are trying to defend gold boxes. If you can win with a conservative estimate, your argument is that much stronger.

[FailureMidgard]

Failure isn't a moron. I was talking about having 12 people at the same NM.. 4 at each, spam until all have key item, rotate, repeat, rotate, briareus. This cuts your farming time required by at least 1/3, and by as much as 1/2 if you have proper jobs to put WAR NIN RDM BRD at each.

Really though, I'd put LS empyreans on the same level as sponsored relics nowadays.. it doesn't cut down on the man-hours involved vs lowman and unless you're planning on getting a weapon for everyone in your shell it's using other people's time for only your benefit. Of course, doing one for everyone has the obvious drawback of useless leeches thinking they deserve it, but eh.. just another drawback.

I agree for the most part, but we have someone in LS doing the h2h atm...and while it isn't officially a LS sponsored relic, we end up with 15-18 people in Tahrongi...a bunch of us help cap amber/azure at the start, then all warp and switch to some useless leech job while 4 people (war war rdm smn) fell cleave for a few hrs. We tab in to pick up Key Items and hold popsets for him, and help with chests, but for the most part we have some 10+ people leeching whatever job, and picking up popsets at the same time, while leeching exp on a job they want. Again, it isn't exactly a LS relic, but there's a lot of LS support still kinda (though really, leeching exp is probably the main incentive).

[Thorny]

I agree for the most part, but we have someone in LS doing the h2h atm...and while it isn't officially a LS sponsored relic, we end up with 15-18 people in Tahrongi...a bunch of us help cap amber/azure at the start, then all warp and switch to some useless leech job while 4 people (war war rdm smn) fell cleave for a few hrs. We tab in to pick up Key Items and hold popsets for him, and help with chests, but for the most part we have some 10+ people leeching whatever job, and picking up popsets at the same time, while leeching exp on a job they want. Again, it isn't exactly a LS relic, but there's a lot of LS support still kinda (though really, leeching exp is probably the main incentive).

That's almost identical to what I did for my Chloris, though generally only 1-2 help cap light because I don't like asking for help at all. Once lights capped, a dozen or so come out to leech and I end up getting dragged into killing Iratham for them a few times, but w.e. Usually everyone leeching subs a mage job and I get free minor cures/cursnas from whoever's not afk at the time too, but not always.. and it would've been done anyway without any of them present. I think it's a much fairer way to do it, instead of using my linkshell's time for my own gain, I do it on my own and let them get benefit from it.

[FailureMidgard]

TEs always seemed a bit rarer to me, and gold/red chests certainly aren't even distribution(between 'types' for gold). I don't know, could be even.. still seems that if you're popping NMs constantly it's a bit wasteful to cap amber for what.. maybe 5 usable key items over the course of the farm :/

As far as key item, went on side of caution since people are trying to defend gold boxes. If you can win with a conservative estimate, your argument is that much stronger.

Restore chests always "seem" rarer to us, but I think it's because we don't pull a cleave unless we have smn 2hr up, so it just stands out more when we get a pull without one. On the other hand, you're probably more focused on TEs, and it stands out more to you when they don't drop. Even so, losing time doesn't even seem to matter anymore. I'm up to some 60+ stones, and spend way too much time in Abyssea. This seems to be the norm for most people in my shell, and even without cleaving, I'd assume it's not too far off for most people elsewhere. In any case, if you are worried about time, you're probably right, I completely forgot about less TEs when I mentioned that...personally though, I'm more interested in physical time spent at this point than Abyssea time (as long as I don't time out and have to recap lights, which would obv. ruin that), so I'd still probably cap ambers.

[Kilik]

Considering the 12 characters were played by about 5 real people most of the time and getting 12 keys from one mob at at time cuts down the time you have to spend running around La Theine, I'd say you are wrong.

1-1.5hrs to get all 12 ppl keys = 4.5hrs max for all 3 keys.
6min per Briareus (3 for kill, 3 for repop) = 1hr 12min... ill round up to 1.5hrs

6hrs for 12 kills.. Roughly 20 helms per cycle. 15hrs total for 50 helms. Seems fine to me.

Bringing only WAR and NIN to all 3 NMs at a time would slow you down. Having mules help trigger Red !! cuts down on time wasted trying to proc it and having a 3rd melee helps kill once you do proc. You also can't account for stuff like the RNG gigas doing a Trebuchet+Catapult combo and dropping any tank from full hp (with all merit abyssites) to 0. Once that happens if you have only NIN and WAR at the NM, you have to wait for the dead tank to build tp to use his trigger ws.

And for the record, we are doing a weapon for each member. 1 down, 8 to go.

[Thorny]

I do use cleave, btw, I just thought it was wrong that people were saying it's the only way to go. It's the best way to handle tahrongi by a long shot.. no ruby on pachypodiums and no decently gathered aggro or linking family to -ga down. As an added bonus, WAR RDM SMN can do chloris while BLM BLM cannot. However, you realize you can't add stones after you've been in 2 hours, correct? Timing out dumps the physical time as well as the abyssea time.

Considering the 12 characters were played by about 5 real people most of the time and getting 12 keys from one mob at at time cuts down the time you have to spend running around La Theine, I'd say you are wrong.

1-1.5hrs to get all 12 ppl keys = 4.5hrs max for all 3 keys.
6min per Briareus (3 for kill, 3 for repop) = 1hr 12min... ill round up to 1.5hrs

6hrs for 12 kills.. Roughly 20 helms per cycle. 15hrs total for 50 helms. Seems fine to me.

Bringing only WAR and NIN to all 3 NMs at a time would slow you down. Having mules help trigger Red !! cuts down on time wasted trying to proc it and having a 3rd melee helps kill once you do proc. You also can't account for stuff like the RNG gigas doing a Trebuchet+Catapult combo and dropping any tank from full hp (with all merit abyssites) to 0. Once that happens if you have only NIN and WAR at the NM, you have to wait for the dead tank to build tp to use his trigger ws.

15hrs * 12 characters = 180 man-hours

20hrs * 3 characters = 60 man-hours

How the fuck is that efficient? I don't care how many of the characters were mules at all, mule-hours are still man-hours.. I can 3box mine and it's still 60 effective hours not 20.

6 hours? Really? Take 4 people, WAR NIN BRD (WHM or RDM).. say you take 1 minute per WS per person. 7 WS for WAR, 6 for NIN, that's 7 minutes to WS and maybe another minute tops to kill a mob. 8 minutes + 3 respawn = 11, x4 = 44. Add 5 minutes to travel(I hope you know what confluxes are).. 49 minutes. Let's say one group takes longer and round it up to an even hour, no biggy. Rotate through the 3, 3 hours for 12 key items. One hour to fight, 1/3 of your time cut off.

Really though, congratulations, you used 120 extra hours of other people's time to save 5 of your own.

[Kilik]

How the hell can you count one person's "man hours" for each character he has logged in? That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Are you really that concerned about the collective in-game playtime counts of your characters because thats the only way what you said makes any sense at all.

I'll use your math:

8min+3min respawn = 11 x 12 = 132 = 2.2hrs for 12 keys. 6.6hrs for 36 keys. 5.5 keys/hour compared to your 4.

And do you know where the gigas ??? pops are compared to the confluxes? Keep in mind the ramps back up out of the gigas spawn areas aren't at the most convenient places. Even if it is 5min to run between all 3 camps and Briareus spawn (which it isnt), we would only have to make that run 3 times. You would have to make it 10 times.

[Byrthnoth]

Yeah, but with 12 people you could do his strategy x3 and get 12 key items per hour. You trade Bri pop spot congestion for safety and speed in the kills.

[FailureMidgard]

I do use cleave, btw, I just thought it was wrong that people were saying it's the only way to go. It's the best way to handle tahrongi by a long shot.. no ruby on pachypodiums and no decently gathered aggro or linking family to -ga down. As an added bonus, WAR RDM SMN can do chloris while BLM BLM cannot. However, you realize you can't add stones after you've been in 2 hours, correct? Timing out dumps the physical time as well as the abyssea time.

Yea, I know you can't, which is why I said as long as you don't time out... But starting with 120, you really shouldn't time out, even with large gold, and I'd just exit out of being sick of it after grinding for 5-6 hrs, so as long as ya don't lose more than 20min per hr, you're mostly fine.

[hexagram23]

The funny part is that all the people defending leeches are those without 4 competent friends or a competent linkshell to arrange their own runs. Just sayin' bros~

Incorrect, and a rather foolish assumption given that I started this whole debate and damn near single-handedly popularized WoE on Titan, either with my own LS or showing other LSs how to win. It's a lot more productive inviting outsiders instead of taking an "us vs them" stance. Those same guys you invited when they went in with 1 or 2 people remember that later on and invite you to runs they organize.

[FailureMidgard]

How the hell can you count one person's "man hours" for each character he has logged in? That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Are you really that concerned about the collective in-game playtime counts of your characters because thats the only way what you said makes any sense at all.

I'll use your math:

8min+3min respawn = 11 x 12 = 132 = 2.2hrs for 12 keys. 6.6hrs for 36 keys. 5.5 keys/hour compared to your 4.

And do you know where the gigas ??? pops are compared to the confluxes? Keep in mind the ramps back up out of the gigas spawn areas aren't at the most convenient places. Even if it is 5min to run between all 3 camps and Briareus spawn (which it isnt), we would only have to make that run 3 times. You would have to make it 10 times.

You missed the point...he was saying split into 3 groups of 4 if you want to bring 12, and in 11 minutes, you get 3 KIs (one at each gigas spot), then all rotate, and after 3 hrs you have 12 full sets, as opposed to 6.6 hrs that it's taking you.

Also, first you say 5 people playing at once, then you say 1 down 8 to go on your emp weaps, so sounds like you only have 3 extra chars? Also, inb4 Thorny mentions solo 3-boxing and you flat out lose the manhrs.

[Thorny]

You do realize that a group of 4 getting 4 keys an hour is much better than a group of 12 getting 5.5, yes? You can use 3 seperate groups of 4 to get 12/h.. do you even use your brain?

[Kilik]

@Failure, not everyone was on at the same time. And the 6.6 hours was using his math of the kill times. We were getting each of the 12 keys per nm in 1hr. The only reason I said 1-1.5hrs before was because the ranger mob can be a bitch to trigger red on because Catapult counts as an ability and you can't proc during that. So we were averaging about 3-3.5hrs for a full set of 12 pops.

Thorny, I guess you are assuming you never have trouble getting a pop item to drop since you dont include a THF in your plan anywhere. And I guess you never get unlucky with a player dying to a bad combo of tp moves.

[Aurara]

I dont get it, i TALKED to you about this thorny, and you didnt react like this when i said we have 12 chars farming pops, what the deal? :<

[Cream Soda]

Forum play is a whole new ballpark.