Final Form Magian Weapons

[EjinCaitsith]

They are zergs, why wouldn't i be sitting at < 200% tp?

edit: well i guess you can assume that 13 of them were done at 200% tp

[FailureMidgard]

Final thoughts.... stop farming caras and start farming glavoids! But really, 85 empy GA would wipe the floor with masa and every other empy(pure dmg wise). This is coming from someone who has 85 Masa.

But this is expected cause of RR, no? I mean, Fudo is amazing...but anything that can't crit is pretty shitty inside Abyssea, so not sure why you're surprised. Sam is pretty amazing for low-man situations (esp with capped lights) because of how fast you can kill with 5 Fudos with a 2hr, but ya, outside of that it's pretty trashy inside Abyssea due to RR. I highly doubt your parse would like anything like that outside Abyssea. Guess it all depends if the future of this game is pure Abyssea, or if we'll ever lose our Atmas.

[EjinCaitsith]

But this is expected cause of RR, no? I mean, Fudo is amazing...but anything that can't crit is pretty shitty inside Abyssea, so not sure why you're surprised. Sam is pretty amazing for low-man situations (esp with capped lights) because of how fast you can kill with 5 Fudos with a 2hr, but ya, outside of that it's pretty trashy inside Abyssea due to RR. I highly doubt your parse would like anything like that outside Abyssea. Guess it all depends if the future of this game is pure Abyssea, or if we'll ever lose our Atmas.

Yeah i 100% agree. I was more so joking. Samurai is still my main and i'm still happy i did Masa, but pure number wise it's sub-par in abyssea compared to h2h/GA. Like you said, outside of abyssea crit WS are probably less impressive, but what's left outside of abyssea? WoE lol? I wouldn't want to tank/lowman anything on war either =/.

[Zag]

Thorny. I wanted to the h2h empyrean in action for the longest. Do you have any videos or screenshots of the proc rate on the double damage with aftermath?

I wanted to see the the melee damage alone with the aftermath up. And even more, the actual WS with the aftermath up.

How does this weapon at level 85 compare to the level 85 spharai? Sorry if this was asked already but I have not been on BG in about 2 months.

[Thorny]

Thorny. I wanted to the h2h empyrean in action for the longest. Do you have any videos or screenshots of the proc rate on the double damage with aftermath?

I don't. In my experience, it's about 20% procrate on lv1 aftermath(was expecting higher really.. but can't complain).

I wanted to see the the melee damage alone with the aftermath up. And even more, the actual WS with the aftermath up.

Melee for 450-550, crits in 600-700 range in abyssea. Proportionately lower outside. Aftermath doesn't effect WS.

How does this weapon at level 85 compare to the level 85 spharai? Sorry if this was asked already but I have not been on BG in about 2 months.

Blows them out of the water offensively, but spharai's defensive edge keeps them from being completely outdated.

[Thorny]

They are zergs, why wouldn't i be sitting at < 200% tp?

edit: well i guess you can assume that 13 of them were done at 200% tp

Disregard what I said, why'd you claim higher damage at higher tp? FTP shouldn't change on a crit ws.

Definitely beats masamune, but what doesn't? SAM is just the bandwagon job, it was never anything great.. pretty sure Vereth still crushes Ukon. Similar WS damage and you're looking at D:70x2 del:331 vs d:120 del:482.. even if you make full use of hasso you're getting better DPS out of vereth before considering everything else monk has to tilt things in it's favor. Kind of makes sense, considering how much more difficult farming Tahrongi is than La Theine.

[EjinCaitsith]

Smite averaged ~3k during my preliminary parse with highs over 5k

What mobs? I mean the avg i said was including all mobs and NMs we did in our 6hour farm session(a lot of wivres). If you want me to narrow it down to xp mobs then average was more so around 3.7K. And war could easily 5hit now with all the stp gear available. Empy GA vs h2h might not be as huge of a gap as it is vs masamune, but i highly doubt it's laughable to think GA would be the winner vs any/all other empy(inside abyssea only).

[EjinCaitsith]

Similar WS damage and you're looking at D:70x2 del:331 vs d:120 del:482.. even if you make full use of hasso you're getting better DPS out of vereth before considering everything else monk has to tilt things in it's favor.

Except when you're consistently doing 4K~ WS and mobs die in < 10sec NMs <25 99% of the time when does mnk get a chance to gain full benefit of its melee damage. Ok, when you're trioing or low-manning. I 100% agree there. If i was trioing or low-manning i wouldn't want to use war either.

[Thorny]

You're assuming GA is the winner when there are a half dozen that haven't even been properly reported on.. you got a weapon and saw a few nice epeen numbers and instantly assume it's the best. I'm not going to say it's not, because I haven't mathed it, but it's certainly not a notable difference and looks to be behind using your WS average and mine along with dmg/delay. I'm sure ukon is good, but to say it's better when you're still playing with the WoE weapon and nobody's gotten a controlled parse out on half of them is a joke.

I guess zerging everything is a pretty relevant point, since you can probably do so with 6ish.. but idk, not how I play usually. You just keep amber capped and pop a fanatic's every NM?

[EjinCaitsith]

You're just assuming h2h is the winner. Maybe it is; I hope it is. But, from what I've seen so far... my money is on the GA. And it's not some total shot in the dark assumption. My original statement was "it would wipe the floor with all empy" which is 99% true, with basically the only weapon capable of matching it at this point is h2h(inside abyssea ofc).

[Thorny]

Wipe the floor is a strong statement, Sword is putting out pretty impressive numbers and I haven't seen much on scythe/club/bow yet. Obviously h2h is the main contender, but that comes down to the jobs more than the weapons anyway.

[EjinCaitsith]

I guess zerging everything is a pretty relevant point, since you can probably do so with 6ish.. but idk, not how I play usually. You just keep amber capped and pop a fanatic's every NM?

We only cap pearl/azure. We have 1 rdm/drk. Can just pop 1 CSS -> farm some KI's and get a 2hr box for rdm and repeat.

It's basically what we did for glavoid/chloris too. Cap azure/pearl/amber -> cleave -> get revits and 2hr boxes -> CSS zerg chloris when we had a pop -> 6-7 glavoids all at once when everyone was capped on its KI's.

[Plow]

Not so impressed, maybe if you're sitting at >200% tp a lot for whatever reason. Smite averaged ~3k during my preliminary parse with highs over 5k, and that was without proper gear or any buffs/dia and a downward skew due to overkilling mobs and losing hits frequently. Doesn't look bad, but to say it wipes the floor with every other empy when half of them haven't even been reported yet is laughable. Still been meaning to do a more controlled one, but haven't had an opportunity with support I wouldn't be multiboxing.

Disregard what I said, why'd you claim higher damage at higher tp? FTP shouldn't change on a crit ws.

Definitely beats masamune, but what doesn't? SAM is just the bandwagon job, it was never anything great.. pretty sure Vereth still crushes Ukon. Similar WS damage and you're looking at D:70x2 del:331 vs d:120 del:482.. even if you make full use of hasso you're getting better DPS out of vereth before considering everything else monk has to tilt things in it's favor. Kind of makes sense, considering how much more difficult farming Tahrongi is than La Theine.

You realize that 3.4k average is on a quest nm right?

To answer your direct question, more consistently high I would assume is what he means, as they crit more. I.E. 300 tp raging rush in abyssea is basically mighty strikes.

Things you're ignoring:

The following set:
Ukon/rose/x/white
Wala/almas/atillas/brutal
Aurum/timarli/rajas/horde
belenos/goading/+2/+2

Puts ukon @ capped haste, where any combination of 1tic from vv/getting hit once/2 of either/da's on ws/retal(adds 2 for getting hit) 5hits.

Factor in retaliation, 25% da, zanshin, medi, etc., war ws frequency is absolutely through the roof. Note that on 13 nm's with a samurai, he actually ws'd more... and based on his other comments, he's not tanking.


We take damage from our counters... we also gain a swing+2 tp from our counters. Defensively, there's no question mnk is king, it's not even remotely contested. If staying alive isn't an issue... I have a hard time believing a mnk is going to keep up with a war now, given emp vs emp.

Yeah i 100% agree. I was more so joking. Samurai is still my main and i'm still happy i did Masa, but pure number wise it's sub-par in abyssea compared to h2h/GA. Like you said, outside of abyssea crit WS are probably less impressive, but what's left outside of abyssea? WoE lol? I wouldn't want to tank/lowman anything on war either =/.

Tanking/lowmanning on war is np really. Maybe an issue for some of the hard stuff, but 99% of everything a war can stand up fine with a whm.

Also, thorny, ukon is glavoid. You thought farming for chloris was bad...

[Thorny]

I mentioned that 5hit setup weeks ago for someone else.. honestly, not sure your point. I've considered everything you said and monk still comes out ahead in all of my calculations.. it's not a personal attachment of any sort, I have WAR and I have all the gear needed for that setup. You vastly overestimate retaliation, unless you're the only DD worth a damn in your group. You need to keep in mind that WS still take two seconds to use.

[EjinCaitsith]

What is Skillchain damage generally counted as? In the parse i posted SC dmg accounted for over 9% of the total damage. If we assume only 1 DD and brd+cor+dnc for buffers in a low-man fight, would you not count the SC damage the war or sam are capable of that a mnk could never do on its own? 5hit masa/ukon can easily constantly spit out lights and it really does add up to a lot. It's been said that mnk is without a doubt the winner in defensive battles, which i think is true, but if you factor in the SC damage(damage is damage, right?) war and sam can/should/might kill the mob(do more damage) faster than a mnk. Of course it changes from mob to mob depending on if they resist the damage or something, Generally I've found most Abyssea mobs take full SC damage 40%~ of the time and 1/2 dmg or less the other 60%. Even if it's a 1/2 resist, it's still 1.5-2K damage in most cases.

[Thorny]

I'm a bit hazy on higher level skillchains, are you saying that ukko's->ukko's or fudo->fudo is light but smite->smite isn't? If it's an issue of TP, BRD COR DNC MNK would allow the monk to self-skillchain as well..

[EjinCaitsith]

Oh, ok then. Wasn't aware mnk could consistently self SC at all when /war, lol.

[Thorny]

Not consistantly, but often enough that it's not going to be a massive difference(WS frequency should be every 12s or so on average for war as well, which devalues sekkanoki and meditate when doing a WS/time assessment). Depends what mobs you're talking about though, trash mobs will almost always overflow SC damage.. were you including NMs in your assessment of SC damage? Really just talking about nothing unless someone's going to take the time to evaluate dps on the jobs.. far too many variables to declare a winner just talking about individual points.

Some other things that would need to be checked:
1. Parsed procrate of ODD(Does it change weapon-to-weapon? It shouldn't since it's a pretty uniform bonus, but we don't even have a base value for any of them do we?)
2. Legitimate skillchain resist rate, obviously base damage is simple enough. Does ascetics help?
3. Realistic hate distribution estimate, what're your competing DD(if any), etc.

From there, it's not too hard to take the lowest common denominator of JAs and make a damage/time assessment.

[Kirschy]

Testing ODD should be fairly easy now. (Except maybe for H2H) /w RR + VV you should be near or at fSTR cap, and your crit rate around ~50%. Use some decent food, and your attack should be near capped on normal hits and the +1.0 pdif from crit should have all your crits capped attack. Use remaining Abyssea time after an event and just melee some mobs that won't skew damage. (ie; mobs that get a defense boost or counter.) /w a BRD using march/haste it should be fairly easy to get ~1000hit sample size in under an hour. Distinguishing between a normal crit and DD crit should be no issue. (Make sure not to use any AF3 set bonus that could possibly skew results.)

[shepardG]

Has polearm been finished yet? Tested?