Final Form Magian Weapons

[Scrooge]

Or you go RR/SS and offhand the OAT Katana to increase your WS frequency?

Enchu +1 makes no difference, even if you go that route. Qirmiz Tathlum is definitely still the best possible ammo you could use for DoT or WS, Loki's Kaftan is still the best ws piece. Between those things alone, SS is only giving you 10% crit bonus on WS, and 15% on DoT.

If you do the math for Gnarled Horn vs Sanguine Scythe on Blade: Hi dmg, GH blows it away. Even if you assume GH is 10% crit rate and SS is the full 30% crit dmg, the AGI tips it to GH by a fair margin. And it seems more and more like neither of those are the case.

There's no way the dot portion SS gets is gonna overcome the ws boost + dot boost off GH together.

There's no way SS + Enchu+1 is ever gonna beat GH + Enchu+1 even if you ignore Kamome. But even still, I think you're underestimating Kamome. The delay on Enchu+1 compared to Kamome makes the tp gain not as big as some think.

[Kilik]

So SS does nothing for Blade: Hi since I'm weaponskilling with RR (+30), Kamome(+10), Qirmiz(+5), Loki's(+5) to get my +50% crit dmg. Also looks like I wasted some abyssea time getting Cavaros Mantle for WS set. Back to Commander's Cape I guess.

[Atoreis]

Or you go RR/SS and offhand the OAT Katana to increase your WS frequency?

Kamome off hand has same ws frequency as OAT. Assuming GH+RR Kamome is always higher WS dmg from 10% crit dmg bonus. It also has 8att 8acc. Its also let your Kannagi hits more time = more chance for ODD = even more dot. On top of that Kamome itself has better dps then OAT katana even with 0% crit rate(with 75% its not even competition). summing up OAT can gtfo.

[Atoreis]

Pretty sure that just means you should be using gnarled horn or voracious violet over sanguine scythe.

I think he means he doesnt need Iga back becouse with GH he assuming capped crit rate (if it caps at 75%).

[FailureMidgard]

I'm about to start an event, so I can't make a nice post /w pictures and such atm. So I'll post something better later.

SS + RR + Kamome is 50% crit damage bonus
SS + RR is 50% crit damage bonus
SS is still 30% crit damage bonus
RR is still 30% crit damage bonus
RR + Kamome is 40% crit damage bonus

Seems the crit damage bonus is capped at 50%~ I think it explains a few things we've been noticing. I still have no clue why my parse showed crit damage @ ~20% increase using SS over VV. This data says it should be ~15%.

Well, that explains it!

Enchu +1 makes no difference, even if you go that route. Qirmiz Tathlum is definitely still the best possible ammo you could use for DoT or WS, Loki's Kaftan is still the best ws piece. Between those things alone, SS is only giving you 10% crit bonus on WS, and 15% on DoT.

Assuming you have a 2nd good atma besides RR+SS, sure...if you don't have GH (no idea how that'd even be possible finishing a Kannagi which takes Sobek Skins, but meh) or VV....SS is still a pretty solid 2nd atma, and Qirmiz+Lokis would both becomes useless.

If you do the math for Gnarled Horn vs Sanguine Scythe on Blade: Hi dmg, GH blows it away. Even if you assume GH is 10% crit rate and SS is the full 30% crit dmg, the AGI tips it to GH by a fair margin. And it seems more and more like neither of those are the case.

This is wrong, but a moot point anyway 'cause SS won't ever give the 30% crit damage, and GH seems to be more than 10% critrate (I'm still guessing 30%, mislabeled atma, and there's a cap here also...perhaps +50% from +crit gear [atma seem to be calculated as gear])...should probably test it, just to decide if +critchance on gear is worth using with RR+GH.

Also, this makes Iga Erimaki an entirely useless item to own at the moment I guess since RR+Kaftan+Kamome+Qirmiz caps your critical hit damage increase.

[Scrooge]

This is wrong

No, it's not. You're wrong. Your previous calculation is based purely on crit dmg vs crit rate, and didn't even include the 50 AGI.

[FailureMidgard]

No, it's not. You're wrong. Your previous calculation is based purely on crit dmg vs crit rate, and didn't even include the 50 AGI.

I'm aware, but a Kannagi Nin parses 65%melee, 35%ws for the split, and I mentioned ignoring the agility, but having an extra ~20ish base damage on 35% of your damage is not going to come near making up for that. You're wrong. It doesn't matter anyway, as I said though.

[diasetsu]

You're wrong. It doesn't matter anyway, as I said though.

Hmm, i must be confused, what doesn't matter? Are you trying to say some other atma is better than GH?

[FailureMidgard]

Hmm, i must be confused, what doesn't matter? Are you trying to say some other atma is better than GH?

cause he said : "If you do the math for Gnarled Horn vs Sanguine Scythe on Blade: Hi dmg, GH blows it away. Even if you assume GH is 10% crit rate and SS is the full 30% crit dmg, the AGI tips it to GH by a fair margin. And it seems more and more like neither of those are the case. "
The fact is, SS is not the full 30%, it's in fact 0% with proper gear...so it doesn't matter, at all?

[Scrooge]

I'm aware, but a Kannagi Nin parses 65%melee, 35%ws for the split, and I mentioned ignoring the agility, but having an extra ~20ish base damage on 35% of your damage is not going to come near making up for that. You're wrong. It doesn't matter anyway, as I said though.

First, wtf does a split have to do with anything anyway? You quoted me saying even under the non-cap assumption of 10% rate vs 30% dmg, GH would beat SS for Blade: Hi dmg anyway. You then said I was wrong. I then told you, you're wrong. Split is irrelevant when I was referring to which atma was better for the WS dmg.

At any rate, you don't even know what the WSC on Blade: Hi is, and you're gonna tell me I'm wrong? It's a 60% modifier on it (and yes, I've got the data to back that but that's a discussion for another time), 50*.6*.85 definitely ain't no fucking 20.

52 dmg weapon.
79 AGI on Hume Nin/Warlvl.85, no agi merits.
Give or take +80 AGI on Blade: Hi set.
30 from Furtherance Cruor buffs.
+50 AGI from Gnarled Horn depending.

So 161 SS vs 186 GH.

Going by your numbers earlier:
[For the purposes of this post]
SS is .65 crit rate, .8 crit dmg (.3 RR, .3 SS, .05 Qirmiz, .1 Kamome, .05 Loki's)
GH is .75 crit rate, .5 crit dmg

161 * 5.1 [4.0 fTP, +1 offhand, gorget] * 2 = 1642.2
186 * 5.1 [4.0 fTP, +1 offhand, gorget] * 2 = 1897.2

Alright, let's now use your handy dandy equations:

1642*.35 + 1642*.65*1.5*1.8 = 574.7 + 2881.71 = 3456.41
1897*.25 + 1897*.75*1.5*1.5 = 474.25 + 3201.1875 = 3675.4375

Now, granted, I didn't round a few times cause I'm trying to do a LS event right now, but I didn't round at the same points on both equations. But it definitely looks like to me that GH beats SS even if you assume +10 crit rate from it, and no cap on SS.

So yea, GH blows it away. The difference is only gonna get more disgusting when you factor in the cap crit Kirschy gave.

[zard1977]

I'm about to start an event, so I can't make a nice post /w pictures and such atm. So I'll post something better later.

SS + RR + Kamome is 50% crit damage bonus
SS + RR is 50% crit damage bonus
SS is still 30% crit damage bonus
RR is still 30% crit damage bonus
RR + Kamome is 40% crit damage bonus

Seems the crit damage bonus is capped at 50%~ I think it explains a few things we've been noticing. I still have no clue why my parse showed crit damage @ ~20% increase using SS over VV. This data says it should be ~15%.

Great job! Now to see if the the crit attack bonus job traits of war/drk/thf/dnc can push the cap over 50%...

[barber2006]

Kamome off hand has same ws frequency as OAT. Assuming GH+RR Kamome is always higher WS dmg from 10% crit dmg bonus. It also has 8att 8acc. Its also let your Kannagi hits more time = more chance for ODD = even more dot. On top of that Kamome itself has better dps then OAT katana even with 0% crit rate(with 75% its not even competition). summing up OAT can gtfo.

Could you map this out for me more specifically? Not that I will see Kannagi before both OAT and Kamome are obsolete, but something just seems off. Without any math I can see that allowing your best weapon to hit more often is beneficial and that the crit bonus and att/acc will help substantially. But as far as 'same ws frequency' is concerned I want to make sure I'm seeing things for what they are.

With 45% DW the Delays for Enchu +1/Kannagi and Kamome/Kannagi are 244 and 214 respectively. Or 122 and 107 per swing respectively. The OAT combo only gets .1 more TP per swing from the quick math I did (which is what others are saying I think). However, with these delays the Kamome combo is what? 12% faster? 13%? The 40% (albeit marginally smaller after traits/brutal) DA rate in the offhand would surely give more than a 13% increase in Tp gain would it not? And considering it is already getting a touch more TP per hit would it be unreasonable to think it marginally outpaces Kamome/Kannagi for TP gain?

Because if the cap is true it is very approachable without Kamome at which point the greatest benefit of this katana would be neutered.


Not that it matters too much. By the time the dust settles OAT will have more upgrades and a new NM will come along that will probably drop something that trumps them both.

[Langly]

You forget a Kamome(or any offhand) is capable of double attacking as well provided /WAR or VV or Brutal or any combination of those things? Did you count that into your assessment?

[Kellanved]

You forget a Kamome(or any offhand) is capable of double attacking as well provided /WAR or VV or Brutal or any combination of those things? Did you count that into your assessment?

Aside from the fact that the OAT property does get watered down with DA, the real issue with the echu+1 and its prohibitively high delay lies with the nature of dual wield and 1H weapons. Where you're getting something like 5 TP/hit, it takes 20 swings just to realize a single WS. The lower delay on a katana like kamome ends up closing the difference in swings, such that the few extra hits enjoyed by the echu+1 only results in negligible gain in WS frequency.

The kamome is likely the better off hand weapon at the moment, particularly with a special main hand. More so in abyssea.

[Plow]

Given a decent amount of double attack the oat is going to just barely win on tp gain rate, but you're going to be hitting with kannagi a fair bit less often.

[Langly]

You're right, the OAT will beat the Kamome to 100% tp. I completely agree. Just don't think it's going to leave the kamome behind. The difference between them can amount to around 1 second to 100%TP in OA2's favor. The amount of damage inflicted to 100 will lie in Kamome's favor.

[Atoreis]

Could you map this out for me more specifically? Not that I will see Kannagi before both OAT and Kamome are obsolete, but something just seems off. Without any math I can see that allowing your best weapon to hit more often is beneficial and that the crit bonus and att/acc will help substantially. But as far as 'same ws frequency' is concerned I want to make sure I'm seeing things for what they are.

With 45% DW the Delays for Enchu +1/Kannagi and Kamome/Kannagi are 244 and 214 respectively. Or 122 and 107 per swing respectively. The OAT combo only gets .1 more TP per swing from the quick math I did (which is what others are saying I think). However, with these delays the Kamome combo is what? 12% faster? 13%? The 40% (albeit marginally smaller after traits/brutal) DA rate in the offhand would surely give more than a 13% increase in Tp gain would it not? And considering it is already getting a touch more TP per hit would it be unreasonable to think it marginally outpaces Kamome/Kannagi for TP gain?

Because if the cap is true it is very approachable without Kamome at which point the greatest benefit of this katana would be neutered.


Not that it matters too much. By the time the dust settles OAT will have more upgrades and a new NM will come along that will probably drop something that trumps them both.

My calculation was for 50%DW(suppa,body,head) and 15%da (assuming gh+rr).
Im not gonna rounddown anything becouse that doesnt realy metter.
Simple math (I used more details in my excel math)
Lets say we gonna swing for 2 mins which is 7200 daley
452*0.5=226daley for Kannagi/Oat
390*0.5=195daley for Kannagi/Kamome

7200/226=31.85
7200/195=36.92

Kannagi/Oat:
31.85*1.15=36.62 swings with Kannagi
31.85*1.49=47.45 swings with Oat
84.07 swings total

Kannagi/Kamome:
36.92*1.15=42.45 swings with Kannagi
36.92*1.15=42.45 swings with Kamome
84.9 swings total

Assuming 0.1 TP on favor of OAT thats 5 TP more for OAT on ~84swings which doesnt change WS frequency by almost anything and if you are not capped on acc then acc from Kamome will even gives more ws frequency.
Lets check the dmg from those swings now:
Lets assume:
1.5 pDIF
20% ODD - Thats lowest reported and thats gonna favor OAT
75% crit rate - we using GH+RR
5%crit dmg ammo on TP

Kannagi/Oat:
36.62*1.5*0.25*65*1.2+36.62*2.5*0.75*65*1.2*1.35+4 7.45*1.5*0.25*51+47.45*2.5*0.75*51*1.35= 1071+7230+907+6125=15333

Kannagi/Kamome:
42.45*1.5*0.25*65*1.2+42.45*2.5*0.75*65*1.2*1.45+4 2.45*1.5*0.25*51+42.45*2.5*0.75*51*1.45= 1241+9000+811+5885=16937

Summing up:
1. Maybe 1% faster tp gain by OAT which is sometimes beaten by +8acc and counting that you gonna exceed 100tp a lot more with OAT its in real same ws frequency or even better for Kamome.
2. 10% more melee dmg
3. 10% more dmg on 75% of your WSs

[ejiboo]

http://www.gwcdn.com/albums/images/4...3f1600075f.jpg

http://www.gwcdn.com/albums/images/4...3f16000760.jpg

thought this was pretty neat. colibri.

[Atoreis]

On 2nd ss she seriously looks like she have a colibri pet hidden in her backpack :D

[Taint]

Redemption is freaking awesome looking, hope to get more info on the WS.

We finished our second Emp late last night, Axe for Theous. I'll upload a pic later.