Final Form Magian Weapons

[sruon]

doesn't look like an excal, no good for town.

[NynJa]

Has anyone considered the Additional Effect: Lowers Magic Attack +10 as a pld sword? I could see that being pretty significant on some fights where the enemy has strong magic aoe. Maybe ~10% reduction?

no one cares about that...it can be allready be surived. Now, if its "throw blm's at it", this is what you want:

208 Soulsaber 31+14 240-6 Add.Eff:Lowers Magic Defence+10 Final Form

[Taruking]

no one cares about that...it can be allready be surived.

AV's meteor

[mightyg]

yeah cause when I'm tanking, the thing I want the most is to have the blms nuking harder.

[Julian]

yeah cause when I'm tanking, the thing I want the most is to have the blms nuking harder.

Killing faster is bad?

[Beave]

Killing faster is bad?

Some tanks suck at keeping hate, yo

[michaeldue]

Ok I gave up on this method most of the day at least... WAAAY to slow...

The best thing and what im doing now is only doing Trial on Earth Days....

124 kills left now...

1 Earth day in Kuftal Tunnel with 2x SAM/DNC partners and me on RDM/NIN gave me roughly 45 kills.

So in about 23 hours = 3 more Earth Days, then I should have my Finished product^^
http://ffxi-europe.com/FreeHaut.jpg

Guivre ;;;;;

That bird better be gone next time lol ;;;

But oh well @80 now

And yeah I dont have Hauteclaire so I figured for situations where Hauteclaire is usefull this could be to for now.

[mightyg]

Some tanks suck at keeping hate, yo

Some blms are good at getting themselves killed yo. But in all seriousness, I'm sure lowering magic defense would be helpful, just wouldn't put it on a pld weapon. Would be rare to hear a dd consider it too, especially on these forums.

[Gwynplaine]

The funny thing is that Trials have led to a relative explosion in the usage of quest search comments. There's something like 75 people seeking quest help right now.

[Lildrama]

Anyone know for whm is you can get the club w/ 15% on it? Spent so much time getting muse shiled dont know if im rdy to give it up yet! Q.Q

[Taruking]

Some blms are good at getting themselves killed yo. But in all seriousness, I'm sure lowering magic defense would be helpful, just wouldn't put it on a pld weapon. Would be rare to hear a dd consider it too, especially on these forums.

If you understand how the hate system works, you won't doubt a good sword wielding PLD's ability to hold hate against BLMs (assuming it's not a kited fight since you actually need to land hits for the effect to proc).

It makes perfect sense to put it on PLD weapon. If you manaburn something it usually means feeding TP in close range is a bad idea and chances are PLDs will be the only ones who should engage the target mob, and you don't want to use joyeuse for the same reason.

[Demosthenes11]

its actually kind of nice to stand at NM pops and work with people on killing PHs and such instead of competing with them for claims

[Raelia]

NQ Haute if for PLD i guess.

Gonna get the +4VIT -7% PDT on a GS instead and see how that rolls on PLD/SAM :D

[Davricle]

I haven't seen it answered yet and I'm no mathologist, SO:

Is the Mantis DMG +21, Delay +55 Better than Destroyers? ( I assume so)

In the same vein, is Warfangs DMG +17, Delay + 140 (ew), OAT better than either?

[warc]

I haven't seen it answered yet and I'm no mathologist, SO:

Is the Mantis DMG +21, Delay +55 Better than Destroyers? ( I assume so)

In the same vein, is Warfangs DMG +17, Delay + 140 (ew), OAT better than either?

I'm currently working on either, they both start with same path until after the kill 3 NMs 3 times bit. Unsure of which path to finish up on. I'm currently 2/10 on the blob trophies and would like some input on this as well :/ I was thinking about going with the OAT weapons, but the delay seems gross.

[Cairthenn]

This is really cool when you have people teaming up like this:

http://i43.tinypic.com/1dtp3.png

[HarleyM]

Some blms are good at getting themselves killed yo. But in all seriousness, I'm sure lowering magic defense would be helpful, just wouldn't put it on a pld weapon. Would be rare to hear a dd consider it too, especially on these forums.

I have it on a dagger. Lasts at most 30 seconds, but has a pretty reasonable proc rate. It doesn't replace itself.

[Cairthenn]

http://i40.tinypic.com/4tle13.png

Anybody know where to turn in Ruthven's Nails?

[Rocl]

Guy in LS said trade them to some box next to the moogle he's 3/10 atm
Delivery Crate? or something similar

[nivlakian]

I haven't seen it answered yet and I'm no mathologist, SO:

Is the Mantis DMG +21, Delay +55 Better than Destroyers? ( I assume so)

In the same vein, is Warfangs DMG +17, Delay + 140 (ew), OAT better than either?

There have been some discussions on h2h weapon comparison in the What's Better and Random Question thread:


Random Question Thread:

Spoiler: show

75 MNK with Destroyers and 299 H2H skill

DMG: 53 Delay: 348
Critical Hit Rate +6%
(~5.89 TP per hit with 19 Store TP)


75 MNK with Wargfangs and 299 H2H skill

DMG: 52 Delay: 440
Occasionally Attacks Twice
(~7.09 TP per hit with 19 Store TP)

Is this correct? This seems like a potentially huge upgrade for MNK, getting "Occ2x" and getting pushed to the next tier of TP gain (Delay per swing going from 174 to 220).

This is basically a 26.4% decrease in attack speed, with potentially a 45% increase in double attack?

Can anyone who is good with them, throw some numbers out there for me and the other monks out there?

Edit: Also 20.37% more TP per hit, assuming Usu Feet/Body, Rajas and Brutal.

Since I don't belive in the "45%" occ att twice BS, I'll just assume that that the weapon+brutal gives 55% chance of DA on the first punch and 5% on second punch. If you check the math done here and adapt to the 440 delay/double attack you find :


New weapon (D+17 delay +140 occ att x2)

Assumption : full usukane, /nin brutal.
pdif : merit-like pdif => 1.3 non crit, 2.3 crit, 1.6 asuran fists
mods : 110 str 75 vit for asuran
crit : 10%
asuran fists : gorget
fstr : cap (10)

95% accuracy for melee and asuran.


average rounds till 100 tp : 4.9898

asuran fists damage is therefore 8.1*(35+17+10+0.83*0.10*(110+75))*1.6*0.95
melee damage per round is therefore 0.95*(2.6*(35+17+10)*pdif1+0.15*(35+8 )*pdif1) where pdif1 is the pdif average given by crit and non crits :
pdif1=1.3*0.9+0.1*2.3
(the 2.6 in the formula commes from 2 punch, 5% DA/fists, 50% occ att twice)

The damage per second of this weapon is threrfore

(0.95*(2.6*(35+17+10)*pdif1+0.15*(35+8 )*pdif1)*4.989877194+8.1*(35+17+10+0.83*0.10*(110+ 75))*1.6*0.95)/(440*4.989877194)*60=56.43 dmg/s



Destroyers

average round till 100 tp : 7.364
Adapt the above formulae with 16% crit on non kicks
pdif1=1.3*0.84+0.16*2.3
pdif0:=1.3*0.9+2.3*0.10

(0.95*(2.1*(35+21+10)*pdif1+0.15*(35+8 )*pdif0)*7.364+8.1*(35+21+10+0.83*0.10*(110+75))*1 .6*0.95)/(348*7.364)*60=55.73 dmg/s


conclusion : none at this point, the difference is relying a lot on the actual proc rate of the "occ att twice". With the above 50% assumption you get a weapon 1.3% better than destroyers ("only"). If you do the math with a 45% assumption it's now 56.0 dps vs 55.7... So at this point I'd rather spend my play time farming virtue stones than camping retarded NMs for a weapon that in the end is worse than hades for tanking and faith for pure DD.

Ran my own math through and got a diff result and then went to the allah thread which had fangs higher than you were displaying them and then compared the two and got a reply from your math

He made a few clerical errors (he has a 21 in weapon damage on destroyers and uses the wrong operator when converting delay into seconds elapsed), but they didn't carry into the actual result and he did that right; the math is sound from what I see. Here's what I get if I correct the visible problems, feel free to verify:

Fangs
(0.95*(2.6*(35+17+10)*1.4+0.15*(35+*1.4)*4.98987 7194+8.1*(35+17+10+0.83*0.10*(110+ 75))*1.6*0.95)/((440*4.989877194)/60)=56.43 dmg/s

Destroyers
(0.95*(2.1*(35+18+10)*1.46+0.15*(35+*1.4)*7.364+ 8.1*(35+18+10+0.83*0.10*(110+75))*1.6*0.95)/((348*7.364)/60)=55.70 dmg/s

I made another correction, it really depends on how you account for the ridill effect. If it can proc on either fist (like virtue stones can!) then we get a vividly different result that puts Fangs faaaaaaaaar in front.

Assuming each punch procs individually, if he's going to combine the lot then he has to account for both of them on the ridill effect. To simplify, if we cut it down to each individual punch, and the effect has a 50% chance to proc, then we have a total of 55% chance to DA in some fashion between the weapon and Brutal; so for two fists combined, the total is 3.1, in which case you get:

Fangs
((0.95 * ((3.1 * (35 + 17 + 10) * 1.4) + (0.15 * (35 + * 1.4)) * 4.989877194) + (8.1 * (35 + 17 + 10 + (0.83 * 0.10 * (110 + 75))) * 1.6 * 0.95)) / ((440 * 4.989877194) / 60) = 62.0549824

Destroyers
((0.95 * ((2.1 * (35 + 18 + 10) * 1.46) + (0.15 * (35 + * 1.4)) * 7.36400) + (8.1 * (35 + 18 + 10 + (0.83 * 0.10 * (110 + 75))) * 1.6 * 0.95)) / ((348 * 7.36400) / 60) = 55.7037398

Ran my own math through and got a diff result and then went to the allah thread which had fangs higher than you were displaying them and then compared the two and got a reply from your math

The 18<->21 is a typo the final result is correct, so what's the point of your post ? Then

"wrong operator when converting delay into seconds elapsed"

Is idotic as everyone knows that dividing by (1/60) is the same as multiplying by 60..

I made another correction, it really depends on how you account for the ridill effect. If it can proc on either fist (like virtue stones can!) then we get a vividly different result that puts Fangs faaaaaaaaar in front.

You're taking your dreams for granted. The "occ attack 2x" works only on first swing on the mythics or (more or less) equivalently a 25% per fist. The discussion of how much they beat destro is on the actual proc rate on DA which will be a pain to establish and then you'll have to understand how it interacts with norma double attack. They made the delay/damage so that this weapon would be equivalent/slightly better than destroyers and that's it. Not worth farming if you don't farm virtue stones.

But virtue weapons don't do that, so we currently have no overwhelming precedent for either side.

As for the conversion to seconds, I'm not sure what you mean, as I didn't divide by 1/60, or one sixtieth; I divided by 60 so I could get the delay units from the delay * rounds-to-100tp calc into something usable as damage / second. If I overlooked a segment in there where you accounted for that leap, I missed it; I meant no offense, and as I said and you reaffirmed, the end result *was* correct.

What's better Thread:

Spoiler: show

since this is pretty much getting ignored in the magian thread, lay out the h2h weapon hierarchy for me

is it hades+1 > destroyers > Mantis > the dex4 acc8 cat claws?

where does the occasionally attacks twice (assuming joyeuse proc rates of attacking twice, 45%) fit in that hierarchy

feel free to toss in PW weapons and pre and post upgrades of spharai/glanzfaust for completion's sake so people can stop asking
repost:

I might have completely missed it, but has anyone done any number crunching to see if the Dmg +21 delay +55 Mantis weapons would beat destroyers/hades +1? might think of working towards them if they do.

this wasn't answered, bump

currently working on this path, wondering what to upgrade besides the occasionally attacks twice and possibly those dex4 acc8 ones (path for this btw? was unclear in francisco's post at the time)

since this is pretty much getting ignored in the magian thread, lay out the h2h weapon hierarchy for me

is it hades+1 > destroyers > Mantis > the dex4 acc8 cat claws?

If you ignore the +9 accuracy on hades+1, destroyers are ~1.2% better. For hades+1 to beat it, you need to be able to swap those 9 acc in another equipement slot by something that improves your damage more than 1.2%; it's easy, just swap your torreador for a str ring if you are not str caped, and if you are str caped do hollow earring > mermans or black Tath. > white tath. Basically 1 base dmg doesnt beat 6% crits, but 2 base damage do.

Mantis ( I assume the D21 delay 55 one?), is equialent do destroyers. Well there are many ways to do the maths, but my maths find destroyers is +0.2% better.. which is neglectible.


cat claw I assume DMG+18 delay+61 dex+4 acc+8?

With this delay you are getting 0.1 more tp/hit than destroyers or HS+1 btw, which changes WS frequency.

If you ignore those +10 accuracy, detroyers are 6% better, and NQ hades sainti are 5.2% better. Are you gonna be able to swap 10 accuracy slots for something better than +6% damage? nope: they are wors than destroyers. Are you gonna be able to swap 3 accuracy slots for 5.1% damage? nope: they are worse than hades sainti NQ.

remark: the maths were done for mnk/nin not holding their TP, with caped fSTR during melee or WS, str+vit=200 during WS, pdif=1.3, pdfif_crit=2.3 and asuran_pDIF=1.6 and double march (basically no minuets or chaos's). I can provide details later if needed... all is on my spread sheet.

My own math :

*Mantis (D21 delay 55) is ~1% better than Hades Sainti +1 without the +9acc, so HS+1 will almost always beat it.
*destroyers are 1.2% better than HS+1 without the +9 acc so HS+1 will almost always win
* destroyers are 0.2% better than mantis...
* destroyers are 4% better than cat's claws *IF* you don't need the acc (10 acctotal). So If you use those acc fully they will beat destroyers.
* HS+1 are 2.8% better than cat's claws *if* acc on both weapon is not accounted for, so in all cases it doesn't beat it.


So general comparison :

acc needed
HS+1 > cat's claw > destro > mantis
Part of the acc is traded for other stats on other slots (merits typically)
HS+1>destro>mantis>cat's claws
acc not needed at all
destroyers>mantis>HS+1>cat's claw

If you ever manage to do a decent crit build cat's claw is probably winning, good luck with that, it's probably done with byakko/usu body and sushi, so inferior to full usu.

Also stat wise, shenlong's are superior to all. And mythic and relic are gaining free damage (5 and 6 I think) and a fstr so nothing can beat them now (mythic used to suck, not now, good news..)