Final Form Magian Weapons

[Massimo]

That's irrelevant though, when you can so easily switch bodies during Berserk. Hachiryu should still lose overall unless you're gimp and fulltime it.

[Neisan]

Does lose when just comparing Berserk up then. Conclusion is Grim+1 with Zerk down, Zahak's with Zerk up.

[Byrthnoth]

AF3+2 hd (6)
AF3+2 bd (5)
Homam Hn (3)
Twilight Belt (7)
AF3+2 legs (5)

I believe thats 26% Gear haste, I dont think I fucked that math up. All forms of DW havent changed either.

There's no real point in arguing with you, but there's no way in hell 15% Triple Attack gives TP slower than 5% Double Attack and 2 Regain to a Thief.

Spoiler: show

Constants assumed:
Twashtar/Triplus (If you offhand Mandau, which you probably should, Base Triple Attack decreases by 3% and AoA is favored more)
4.5 TP/hit (About right, maybe a bit low really)
.66 TP/sec and 5% Double Attack with VV
Base 19% TA rate and 13% DA rate
15% TA from Atma of the Apocalypse
25% Haste from gear, 15% Haste from Haste

1+.19*2+(1-.19)*.18*1 = 1.52 Attacks per round with VV
1+.34*2+(1-.34)*.13*1 = 1.77 Attacks per round with AoA
(1.77-1.52) = .25 Attacks per round more with AoE than VV

.25 * 4.5 = 1.125 TP per swing more with AoE than VV

1.125/.66 = 1.7 seconds per swing is parity
1.7*60 = 103 Delay for Parity

176*.60 = 105 Delay
With 10% Dual Wield, you're at 95 Delay (and getting more than 4.5 TP/hit without any STP)

If you want to claim that you don't bother Hasting yourself when you're playing mage jobs and dualboxing THF/NIN:
With 33% Dual Wield and 25% Haste, you're at 88 delay (and getting 4.5 TP/hit with Rajas)

There's also no way (barring failing to get Cruor buffs and eat food, and I don't want to work out the math there) that 15% Triple Attack and 20% Crit rate add less DPS than 50 STR, 5% DA, and 2 Regain. You don't get TP faster or hit more frequently with your Atma choice. You have a lower crit rate, and the only unbalanced benefit is a potential 1-2 points of fSTR that you probably already have from Cruor buffs, gear, and meat. Still, stick with whatever you like. You're not even on my server, so the odds that I'll interact with you and your Atma choices will affect my game experience is low.

Also, just from a logical standpoint, it seems kind of dumb that you'd use VV over AoA, if your goal is to TP in the THF AF3+2 set for the set bonus. Wouldn't near-doubling your Triple Attack rate (and chances to proc the set bonus), along with increasing your TP gain (as shown above) potentially outweigh 1-2 fSTR and 5% Double Attack?

Furthermore, if you aren't relying on using Rudra's (because Evisceration is better in Abyssea even when stacked with Sneak Attack), you could main-hand Mandau. This lets you pick up a point of main-hand damage for WS and 30 Attack, along with lolen-poison and Mandau's triple procs if I'm not mistaken.

[Massimo]

Are you considering the ODD aftermath when you say Evisceration is better?

[Byrthnoth]

Are you considering the ODD aftermath when you say Evisceration is better?

I'm not and I should have qualified that statement again. The difference in weaponskill damage could potentially be offset by the aftermath. This is especially true if he's overTPing. Then Rudra's would do better damage than Evisceration and the Aftermath would last longer/be more potent.

Still, at 100TP you're looking at:
Rudra's, 30% ODD vs. Evisceration, (~5%?) OTD, 30 Attack, +1 base damage

[Zeb]

Are you considering the ODD aftermath when you say Evisceration is better?

Considering the original argument was this:

The WS is better than Evisceration when stacked with SA outside Abyssea. Inside Abyssea it's equal or a little worse than Evisceration stacked with SA, but may be worth using for the aftermath. Unstacked, it's crappy.

I don't think he cares. Plus he's doing the math for Twatstar for some reason, when Nynja is talking Daka +2.
Eyeballing vs Math
Why has BG let this continue so long?

*edit* get back to work taru.

[Byrthnoth]

>:/ The galkas are sneaking computers into the mines again.

Edit: Also, reading Mont's "What's better?" post made me realized that I forgot to add Evisc's 10% Crit rate boost in when I compared it to Rudra's. Oops!

[Draylo]

85 Almace, BLU power!

http://www.gwcdn.com/albums/images/4...6a180015bc.jpg

[Cleverness]

Got some mail you need to check apparently

[ronin sparthos]

Got some mail you need to check apparently

lolPOLmail

@Draylo

Grats on Almace85.

[Yugl]

"Now everyone except Yugl has an Empyrean weapon, but fuck spending life in Tahrongi for the lame DRG weapon" said the Yugl.

[Galattea]

Ok, going to work on Grim / +1 and Zahak's, but until then, what should I be wsing into ? Assuming Ukonvasara 85 (Not sure if it matters) and using Ukko's. Want to know this because I already have Ravager's Lorica +2 and means to get a Twilight Mail, so trying to figure out what I can use as a short-term option. Please do list other viable choices, should they exist, incase I'm overlooking something.

Thanks in advance =)

[Mercilessturtle]

Perle is the basic WS body until you get something better.

[Mafai]

Ok, going to work on Grim / +1 and Zahak's, but until then, what should I be wsing into ? Assuming Ukonvasara 85 (Not sure if it matters) and using Ukko's. Want to know this because I already have Ravager's Lorica +2 and means to get a Twilight Mail, so trying to figure out what I can use as a short-term option. Please do list other viable choices, should they exist, incase I'm overlooking something.

Thanks in advance =)

I'd think this order?

Grim - DEF:64 STR+15 Attack+30 Physical damage taken -5% Magic damage taken +5%

Ares's - DEF:55 HP+3% MP+3% STR+12 VIT+12 Attack+24 Adds "Refresh" effect Set: Enhances "Double Attack" effect

Adaman - DEF:53 STR+10 DEX+10 Accuracy+15 Attack+15 Evasion-10

Zahaks -DEF:55 STR+10 DEX+10 Evasion-20 Critical hit rate +3%

[Neisan]

Even without Berserk Zahak's is still beating Adaman and Adaman is tied with Perle. Ares beats Zahak's with Zerk down.

[Mercilessturtle]

What are you using for your attack and target's def? I have perle beating ebody even with 680 attack, which is as low as I can see a warrior ever getting in abyssea. With low attack (680 vs a 400 def level 95 mob) I have hachi/grim tied > zahaks > perle > ebody. With reasonable attack (900, same target mob) I have zahak > hachi > grim > perle > ebody. I didn't bother with ares since it is just grim-1.

[Neisan]

735 attack w/o Zerk 832 w/ Zerk, Mob defense around 387 (assumes Dia 2), monster level assumed to be 97. Looking back on it Perle is winning including the TP phase but for WS with Zerk down they're about the same with Adaman losing with Zerk up.

EDIT: and forgot to change body during TP phase, so overall Adaman is losing to Perle.

[Motenten]

Due to Gobli data that Victory Smite mods might be different that what I've been using, went through and did some testing. As before, found that certain basic testing made it very difficult to distinguish between the two (one particular setup I was considering actually turned out to have identical max potential damage values). However shifting to testing the str mod instead of the fTP mod made it a bit easier, especially when the rounding created a significant gap.

Will simply note the primary sample point of interest.

Mnk/thf for SA testing on starter mobs.

Gear:
Revenant Fists +2 // Tantra
Tantra+2 / / Brutal / Kemas
Usukane / Heafoc / Rajas / Spiral
- / Black / Usukane / Hermes

Base damage: 377 skill * .11 + 3 = 44 + 31 (weapon) + 11 (fStr) = 86

Str: 79+56 = 135 // Edit: fix typo

@50% str, WSC = 56
@60% str, WSC = 68

Max potential with 60%/2.25: 1,089
Max potential with 50%/2.40: 1,071

High end observed weaponskill damage: 1,083 and 1085

That's sufficiently higher than the 50%/2.4 max value that I'm willing to switch to the Gobli weaponskill mods. Updating my spreadsheet accordingly.

[Obsidian]

Always thought it was odd Smite was the only Empyrean skill with a single stat 50% mod when the rest of the single stat mods were 60%.

[Mercilessturtle]

For war bodies: none of the bodies in question are relevant for TPing, they don't have store tp. It is purely a WS question. 735 to 832 from berserk doesn't make any sense, you'd be over 900 with berserk up. What atmas are you assuming, and are you forgetting some crit damage bonus or anything like that? In the very low attack case of 680, you are looking at +1 base damage from WSC, and like ~0.02 pdif from attack for ebody, vs 2% crit rate for perle. With 45-48% +crit damage, the crit rate comes out ahead easily.