Final Form Magian Weapons

[Niiro]

The enhancement on the DNC AF3 body gives striking flourish a chance to force a crit that will work on WS, despite the fact that the actual crit flourish (climactic) doesn't work on non-crit WS, for all the sense that makes.

The issue is striking is on a 2 min timer, so at best you'd be using it with Rudras when the recast is up for the chance at a crit and some aftermath while using Evis the rest of the time. At the very least Twashtar's DEX and high base damage make it a good mainhand dagger for DNC to Evis with anyway.

Whether alternating Striking+Rudras/Evis and the damage from the temporary aftermath is worth the trouble compared to just spamming Evis can only be determined if you know just how high the chance of crit is for Striking and what kind of damage it can reliably do.

[Mojo]

I look at it this way. War fulltiming hasso needs more than a whm to survive (on anything worth a fuck anyways). Once you drop down to seigan or utsusemi, you fall behind in damage as well. (cause hasso is pretty much the defining JA for 2handers (for singular mobs, retaliation of course for hoards of mobs)

WAR/MNK can still achieve a 6 hit build without giving up capped Haste and too much Double Attack while maintaining a potential Counter rate of 60% (Gnarled Horn.) This isn't a bad trade off for Hasso especially when capped Haste situations are so rare these days. There are only a select situations where a good WHM wouldn't be able to keep up.

[Mazmaz]

Wait WAR/MNK is in now?

[Mojo]

I think it works pretty well, better than WAR/SAM if you're low manning stuff. Maybe people just haven't caught on yet.

[Raelia]

Why not 70% with GH and Roaring Laughter?

[Mojo]

Not really worth giving up Apoc for rly

[Hitoseijuro]

WAR/MNK can still achieve a 6 hit build without giving up capped Haste and too much Double Attack while maintaining a potential Counter rate of 60% (Gnarled Horn.) This isn't a bad trade off for Hasso especially when capped Haste situations are so rare these days. There are only a select situations where a good WHM wouldn't be able to keep up.

The moment you drop off hasso, you were better off with a monk, as your damage massively dropped. Not saying you should go with a monk or better setup or youre a gimp because you dont(play however you enjoy).

Creams post is stating this exactly, hasso is whats putting war at a good head lead over the other jobs(obviously other factors play a part, but whether you have hasso up or not you still have those factors, ie natural berserk, crit ws etc).

[Mazmaz]

Is 6% haste really doing that much when you're not even getting marches and only haste spell?
I mean I thought 5hit + meditate + sekka + being able to self light a LOT was a pretty good case for it without looking at Hasso. I dunno MNK takes forever to get to 100 TP.

[Hitoseijuro]

Is 6% haste really doing that much when you're not even getting marches and only haste spell?

6% haste?

[Mazmaz]

nvm, I was looking at STR
My point stands though

[Hitoseijuro]

nvm, I was looking at STR
My point stands though

Ah, ya, 10% haste is a big increase regardless of haste value(assuming you get the full kick). If dnc/brd get tossed into the equation to lessen the amount of haste being added by hasso, then you have even less reason for going defensive with war/mnk as whm/dnc/brd can keep a war/sam going with no worries(as CS pointed out about having a good support for war).

*note* im in agreement with you, I dont see war/mnk idea being anything other than something different to try. It has nothing on sam/war and imo sacs a lot by giving up /sam sub for 56~57% counter rate.

[Mazmaz]

I should be clear. I meant why is 5hit + meditate + sekka + being able to self light a LOT not good enough in itself (without looking at Hasso) to make WAR/SAM better than MNK as a DD.

[Hitoseijuro]

I should be clear. I meant why is 5hit + meditate + sekka + being able to self light a LOT not good enough in itself (without looking at Hasso) to make WAR/SAM better than MNK as a DD.

Oh it is, but you have to take into fact, how much tp overflow you are getting with war over mnk. Retaliation 47.5% proc+15% Triple attack +28 DA+3min mediate is a lot of tp coming in(dont get me wrong, 5hit should be a priority). Sekka does help with control that overflow ever 5mins though, although its only 1 attack round it helps. Hasso helps a wars dps shoot up atleast 20%(just with gear+haste spell) or something nasty like that.


*note*Been playing with Kines sheet, and it looks to show smite rivaling fury for damage, though from SS that doesnt look to be the case...

[solanis]

I'm a bit confused... you're dicussing war in a lowman situation /sam? I'm not sure what you consider lowman or how much you do of it, but no sane war is going anything other than /nin during lowman of anything significant.

[Hitoseijuro]

I'm a bit confused... you're dicussing war in a lowman situation /sam? I'm not sure what you consider lowman or how much you do of it, but no sane war is going anything other than /nin during lowman of anything significant.

It started out more of:

Person A: mnk or nin + whm in a low man situation is better than a war + whm, but he claimed to be bias against war from the start

Person B+C: call out bs, and claim whm has np keeping a war up with the amount of mp a whm can maintain in abyssea

Person D: notes that in his opinion keeping a war full timing hasso would require more than just a whm to support it, and if not using hasso its taking a hit to its full potential

Person E: claims war/mnk is another way to go about it with lowman w/o sacrificing much

Person F: explains how much war is really losing out with dropping /sam and notes what person D said while also subtly pointing out that person A might be right if you go with person Es setup.

Person G: Wonders if just having /sam even w/o hasso not already better than a monk

so ya..........

[Ihina]

Back on the subject of Twashtar and Rudra....

i92.photobucket.com/albums/l7/Jayjs20/ffxi_20110210_203505.png

Back when my Twashtar was still 85. Damage may not be all that impressive in the grand scheme of things, compared to other Emp weapons, but I've never seen my own Evis peak anywhere close. There's also the fact that Rudra is a 1+1 hit WS where both hits are guaranteed to land, while Evis ia a 5+1 hit where only 2 of the 6 are guaranteed, not to mention the 8-hit cap, therefore, Rudra will average higher in the long run. At least, that's true from my experience with it(And my Evis has a 30atk/1DMG advantage). Sure, if every hit off Evis lands every time and maybe something like 4 hits crit out of 5 on average, Evis will do better, but that's simply not reasonable to expect.

[Anso]

WAR/SAM + WHM is a great duo, I dual box it all the time and between GH and Seigan + Third eye my WHM has 0 problems keeping MP up, but yeah NIN + WHM is easy mode and I do prefer it, it's just nice to be able to effectively cleave when I need to on WAR lol

[zard1977]

Why are you even arguing stacked Rudra> stacked Evi?
Anyone with a brain knows that.

[Massimo]

I think we're all well aware of the fact that MNK and NIN are better 'tanks', in the sense that they're easier to keep alive. However, I have tanked everything in Abyssea on WAR/SAM, and it is most certainly not made of the paper-thin material that was suggested earlier. While you may have to Seigan at times, as it was said, the damage output is still better than a NIN who has to cast utsu, in my experience. MNK/WAR vs Seigan WAR probably puts the MNK on top, but then you're left with a job that can't proc red for shit, which is what half of this game is about these days.

My entire argument was about Arthars's previous statements, saying WAR can't tank anything serious, which obviously isn't true. Nowhere did I say it was better than one or the other, aside from raw damage output when you can Hasso, many blue and red proc options combined in one job and the ability to cleave shit, which I think we can all agree on.

Also, no, you are not better off going WAR/NIN. WAR/NIN sounds terribly inefficient if it's for anything other than maxing your red proc options. And even then, ugh.

pointless to argue with people who got hurt

rage war goes to PM

Can't believe I never realized you were this fucking stupid.

[Arthars]

edit: damn double post