Final Form Magian Weapons

[Arthars]

holy fuck 12 hours later after you are still hurt?

good lord.....

and when did i say war cant tank anything serious.....

i only said it feeds more tp and need more cures and have a higher chance to get KO'ed, and in low man situation you can really hardly find a war

i did not say war suck, or cant tank etc

so wtf are you talking about now yo?

are you taking shits personal now? PM me will do

likewise i cannot believe your this stupid as well good lord......

[Massimo]

http://www.gogaminggiant.com/wp-cont...7/facepalm.jpg

[Arthars]

sorry man i just feel like i have to raise you

http://i929.photobucket.com/albums/a...esus-epic-.jpg

enough is enough

[Byrthnoth]

Back on the subject of Twashtar and Rudra....

i92.photobucket.com/albums/l7/Jayjs20/ffxi_20110210_203505.png

Back when my Twashtar was still 85. Damage may not be all that impressive in the grand scheme of things, compared to other Emp weapons, but I've never seen my own Evis peak anywhere close. There's also the fact that Rudra is a 1+1 hit WS where both hits are guaranteed to land, while Evis ia a 5+1 hit where only 2 of the 6 are guaranteed, not to mention the 8-hit cap, therefore, Rudra will average higher in the long run. At least, that's true from my experience with it(And my Evis has a 30atk/1DMG advantage). Sure, if every hit off Evis lands every time and maybe something like 4 hits crit out of 5 on average, Evis will do better, but that's simply not reasonable to expect.

Back when we thought Rudra's was 30% DEX with high fTP, SA Evisceration came out equal or better than it mathematically. Now that we know it's 60% DEX with lower fTP, SA Rudra's is the clear winner.

[Mercilessturtle]

enough is enough

If you really thought it was enough, you wouldn't keep posting. You seem a lot more butthurt than anyone else does. You post stupid shit, you got called on it for once, get over it.

[Arthars]

more hatred inc

lets keep going then

what do you want to talk about today?

[Obsidian]

How about that weather.

[Thorny]

Honestly, I hate to side with Arthars, I really do, but here're the facts:

- WAR/SAM with hasso will universally outdamage any other DD.

- WAR/MNK or WAR/SAM seigan are still competitive with any other DD.

However, the survivability issue is still very relevant. I have my characters set up in a manner such that when yellow proccing things I go with:
THF
BLU
BLM
WHM

and have a remaining 5th character that has MNK and WAR 90, galka, both fully meritted and gear capped. The MNK doesn't have a better ws than asuran so I've tried time and time again to do things on WAR, but the reality is that I struggle to keep it alive /SAM, even with seigan. If I change to /MNK, my killspeed becomes almost identical to that on MNK/WAR.. so why drop the 800 hp? Now, I often kill things for buyers which means farming the pops ahead of time and being able to select my job for just the boss. This is not the normal case, I understand, and MNK lacks red !! options. However, NIN/WAR+WHM covers 11/13 and WAR/SAM+WHM covers only 9. Of course, WAR/NIN with full GK merits justice torque and hachimaki can manage the same 11/13.. but then we're back to the same old argument. WAR is for large groups that don't need to make the most every member, it's place in a small group is limitted to maximizing red procs if you're farming for a while and don't want to risk any no-KIs(IE: WAR + NIN + WHM gathering 3 sets for something then job changing to kill).

[The Blackrose]

I agree with most of that, Thorny, but there's a gap in the logic. Namely that the entire post falls under the assumption that any and all encounters have a high chance of the party getting fucked. A good chunk of the early Abyssea encounters are trivial now. If a WHM is having difficulty maintaining a WAR/SAM, I don't think the WAR is the primary issue.

[Atoreis]

more hatred inc

lets keep going then

what do you want to talk about today?

I'm sorry but Massimo is right and Mercilessturtle even more. Your post is all the way butthurt response. (inb4 I'm not a war. I'm veret,kannagi NIN,MNK)

(IE: WAR + NIN + WHM gathering 3 sets for something then job changing to kill).

Yeah that's very effective combo for farming empy and in this case doesnt require job changing too.

[solanis]

I hate agreeing with thorny but he's right, war+nin+whm is one of our most common setups, and it's always how we farm pops.

arthars, you're taking a "well that's just your opinion man" stance, which goes against rational discussion (relativist argument). it's not an opinion thing. maybe step back and stop being defensive?

[TehKerm]

No way, more bloodshed please.

[EjinCaitsith]

Honestly, I hate to side with Arthars, I really do, but here're the facts:

- WAR/SAM with hasso will universally outdamage any other DD.

- WAR/MNK or WAR/SAM seigan are still competitive with any other DD.

However, the survivability issue is still very relevant. I have my characters set up in a manner such that when yellow proccing things I go with:
THF
BLU
BLM
WHM

and have a remaining 5th character that has MNK and WAR 90, galka, both fully meritted and gear capped. The MNK doesn't have a better ws than asuran so I've tried time and time again to do things on WAR, but the reality is that I struggle to keep it alive /SAM, even with seigan. If I change to /MNK, my killspeed becomes almost identical to that on MNK/WAR.. so why drop the 800 hp? Now, I often kill things for buyers which means farming the pops ahead of time and being able to select my job for just the boss. This is not the normal case, I understand, and MNK lacks red !! options. However, NIN/WAR+WHM covers 11/13 and WAR/SAM+WHM covers only 9. Of course, WAR/NIN with full GK merits justice torque and hachimaki can manage the same 11/13.. but then we're back to the same old argument. WAR is for large groups that don't need to make the most every member, it's place in a small group is limitted to maximizing red procs if you're farming for a while and don't want to risk any no-KIs(IE: WAR + NIN + WHM gathering 3 sets for something then job changing to kill).

So, when you go with thf, blu, blm, whm, and mnk for yellow, do you farm the KIs with mnk too, or change jobs after you finish sets? Chances are no. You use war and nin for red !! and change jobs, anyways.

If you're lowmanning an empyrean, mnk has no place what so ever. Which leaves you with nin and war. It's true that nin/war+whm has more procs than war/sam+whm, but why wouldn't you have a thf when farming an empyrean? Adding a thf adds 2 more procs to war/sam+whm and 0 to nin/war+whm. I'm not going to say one is better than the other, but it comes down to survivability with the nin and kill speed with the war. Some cases one is better than the other, but claiming war has little to no place in lowman is ridiculous.

[Mojo]

Honestly you folks are exaggerating the buff Hasso provides in what I would consider lowman situations. From my experience, Abyssea lowman has always been NIN WHM BLM. In this case, which is much more common than I think people will admit to for the sake of this discussion, Hasso is only a 16~17% increase in overall damage (assuming you're substituting a WAR in for the NIN.) It is large, yes, but Hasso isn't really groundbreaking unless you've got a BRD. You're also shrugging off the DoT increase that a 60% Counter rate provides and the fact that /SAM essentially becomes pointless in comparison the moment you start using Seigen. In regards to TP spam, WAR/MNK gets +15 Subtle Blow naturally and Auspice is another +20. Rajas brings you to a total of +40. So really, if you think it's that much of a concern, you can swap out Blitz Ring for a Heed Ring and be at 47/50. I'm going out on a limb here and saying that most people discrediting it honestly have yet to even try it or put any thought into it.

[Byrthnoth]

Counter preempts Retaliation and doesn't give TP, so a 60% counter rate doesn't represent a significant increase in damage when you have a 50% retaliation rate. You hit back 80% of the time, but only get TP from 20%. Normally you'd hit back 50% of the time but get TP from all 50% (and damage+10% from AF3+2 feet).

As far as damage reduction goes, counter doesn't help you with TP moves and spells which are the most dangerous parts of fights. Decreased damage taken (-60% normal attacks + damage taken from Counterstance) would be appreciated I'm sure, but it isn't really necessary and flooring your defense might make high damage TP moves more dangerous (think, like, counterstance'd ruinous scythe or flail).

[Obsidian]

Meditate, Sekkanoki and your five hit don't disappear under Seigan.

[Mojo]

Counter does help you with TP moves by inhibiting mob TP gain. But you're right, it isn't as good as Retaliation in terms of DoT. However, when it takes the better part of an hour to farm some pop sets and /SAM with Hasso is only going to shave a minute? off the fight while /MNK provides a huge boost to survivability, I'd say it's certainly worth the trade off in many cases. I wouldn't use WAR to tank Bukhis at all, I just think the notion that WAR can't/shouldn't tank anything is silly (coming from a dude with Kannagi and Verethragna) as well as the idea that /SAM is the end all be all subjob for WAR.

[Arthars]

nin whm blm/thf onry for me farming empy/af+2 mats. thats lowman.
try apademak or isgebind with a war. you can pull it off still im sure but with alot more hassle

i dont think 6 member in abyssea is considered low man at all since you can pretty much do most stuffs with 6 or lesser people. dont talk about more people = more efficiency cos the way i see it is more people = farm more empys and hence less efficient. If your not soloing an empy(if you have 2 accounts), or at max duoing an empy at lvl 90 then something is wrong

not only war, infact almost all 2H jobs need slightly more member to WORK BETTER. You can do watever you want with war in duo/trio but efficiency is obviously lower, except for cleaving. Not talking about lower tiers NM since any job can cure bomb through them anyway

just to clarify again, i did not say war sucks or cant tank

[Byrthnoth]

However, when it takes the better part of an hour to farm some pop sets and /SAM with Hasso is only going to shave a minute?

This is the part that always gets me when people are epeening it up about how fast they kill shit in Abyssea. People probably spend less than half their time in Abyssea engaged, and when they do half the time it's going to be with a proc weapon rather than an Empyrean. Sure Ukon would increase my WAR's damage dramatically, but we'd be talking about shaving 1 minute off 5-6 minute fights where you spend the first 2-3 minutes proccing Red !!s with staves and shit. Between Ukon and Hermes Sandals, it's pretty obvious which will improve your Abyssea efficiency more, etc.

I do like Sekka for Sunburst -> Earth Crusher or Seraph -> RLB to start fights off if I'm going for Red proc.

[Mojo]

That's pretty much why I'm almost never on MNK. It doesn't have ruby procs so it's more or less useless for farming (unless you're farming azure proc stuff, in which case it's great.) I don't really believe in changing jobs unless it's absolutely necessary, you lose your lights so you end up burning stones or wasting even more RL time recapping lights/etc. I'd rather just do NIN BLM WHM or WAR BLM WHM so that farming + killing can be done both quickly and efficiently.

In regards to Apademak. I wouldn't ever tank it on WAR either. Enstun = no thx.