Final Form Magian Weapons

[EjinCaitsith]

This is the part that always gets me when people are epeening it up about how fast they kill shit in Abyssea. People probably spend less than half their time in Abyssea engaged, and when they do half the time it's going to be with a proc weapon rather than an Empyrean. Sure Ukon would increase my WAR's damage dramatically, but we'd be talking about shaving 1 minute off 5-6 minute fights where you spend the first 2-3 minutes proccing Red !!s with staves and shit. Between Ukon and Hermes Sandals, it's pretty obvious which will improve your Abyssea efficiency more, etc.

Same can be said for any job/empyrean.

[Arthars]

MNK and WAR are beast in terms of damage........thanks to the nature of their empy WSs

MNK is almost a guaranteed fool-proof tank in most situations if you just wanna kill some NMs......

but in reality, if your in abyssea, you are trying to farm something, and MNK is only useful for procing blues and farming empy mats(IN TERMS OF FARMING SOMETHING. IM NOT SAYING MNK IS USELESS OVERALL)

farming KIs no doubt WAR + NIN + WHM wins and farming seals and +2 items THF WHM BLM/BRD wins. sometimes you dont even need a thf if you proc yellow

if you have more than 3 people/IDs, then no reason why you shouldnt be covering everything, have a sub tank, and the argument of which job is more efficient is redundant

[Thorny]

RE: Job Changes

If you read what I posted, I said I often need to have pops prepared beforehand for a buyer getting items at a scheduled time. This means I can use whatever jobs I'd like to kill the monster, and MNK is a clear winner over WAR in utility even using asuran fists.

The more relevant point, which I addressed later, is extended farming without job changes. Yes, WAR can match nin's 11 WS with a THF.. but you're still sacrificing survivability for an absolutely minimal change in killspeed. You can talk about cleave, but it's easier to find monsters that don't amber than monsters that don't ruby, and NIN + WHM can easily hold a full family of monsters.. WAR has much more difficulty without a source of phalanx. Furthermore, if you're looking to have amber capped you can edge any mob anywhere without losing light efficiency. I apologize for saying WAR has no place besides filling NIN's missing red triggers, but it's certainly sub-optimal when compared to NIN. I have nothing against WAR, and am 40/50 38/50 75/75 for ukonvasara, I just don't see it as a practical substitute for NIN or MNK on many monsters.

PS: For farming blue procs, just deaggro if it's h2h. WHM gets 10/15, and everyone has a WHM anyway.

[Arthars]

<3 thorny

yea deaggroing rocks but sometimes a bastard NA comes by.........

and guess what...mainly dncs zzzzzz.....i got 2 turuls robbed by 1 party when farming for loki as we deaggro it because friend pulled and provoked before 22:00...

not their fault but just saying deaggroing can be risky when facing "some" people

@30 mins to maint....hope dragua and apademak mats finally goes from 0-2 to 1-2

gotta pop 1 apademak after maint

Way late but finally.........
Item drop rates have been adjusted for the notorious monsters Apademak (Abyssea - Uleguerand) and Dragua (Abyssea - Altepa).

[Mojo]

RE: Job Changes

If you read what I posted, I said I often need to have pops prepared beforehand for a buyer getting items at a scheduled time. This means I can use whatever jobs I'd like to kill the monster, and MNK is a clear winner over WAR in utility even using asuran fists.

The more relevant point, which I addressed later, is extended farming without job changes. Yes, WAR can match nin's 11 WS with a THF.. but you're still sacrificing survivability for an absolutely minimal change in killspeed. You can talk about cleave, but it's easier to find monsters that don't amber than monsters that don't ruby, and NIN + WHM can easily hold a full family of monsters.. WAR has much more difficulty without a source of phalanx. Furthermore, if you're looking to have amber capped you can edge any mob anywhere without losing light efficiency. I apologize for saying WAR has no place besides filling NIN's missing red triggers, but it's certainly sub-optimal when compared to NIN. I have nothing against WAR, and am 40/50 38/50 75/75 for ukonvasara, I just don't see it as a practical substitute for NIN or MNK on many monsters.

PS: For farming blue procs, just deaggro if it's h2h. WHM gets 10/15, and everyone has a WHM anyway.

You represent a niche situation in which taking the time to change jobs doesn't usurp a significant investment of RL time. WAR can also use Cataclysm if you're concerned about Ruby lights, which is still aeons faster than NIN using Aeolian Edge although to be honest I've never found it necessary to cleave anything for time. The random mobs between timed pops or whatever are usually adequate to get time on.

Also, claiming that MNK > WAR provides more utility even using Asuran Fists is a bold statement. I'd like to see how you substantiate this one. Either way, WAR isn't a practical substitute on a select few monsters, but that's really only a handful of mobs. It's fine on the rest. It's also somewhat ironic that you're mentioning practical here while stating that you are changing jobs between farming KI and killing the NMs. Interrupting a run to do this is on a completely different level of impracticality than some often insignificant decrease in survivability for the other 95% of people in Abyssea.

[Thorny]

Every time I've mentioned job changing I stated that it was a niche situation, explained why I do it, and addressed the way most people would be farming in the same post. Thanks for pointing out what I've already said, I guess?

Again, addressing your statement only, not saying everyone should job change:
Sobek, Bukhis, Tristitia, Ketea, Apademak, Alfard, Amphitrite are a few mobs where your success rate will drop more than 10% using a WAR instead of an asuran MNK with one WHM healer. The killspeed difference between the 2 is drastically less than 10% of the time required to farm a new pop, so yes, the asuran MNK has more utility. It's not impossible to use WAR as a substitute for most things, it's impractical and does change your success rate in a small group.

I addressed the points that matter to most people pretty clearly, and instead you focus on the situation that only applies to me and act as if I'm applying it to anyone else. IE: Trying. Too. Hard.

The only relevant thing you've brought up is cataclysm, which doesn't alleviate the damage taken difference(a nin with half eva gear and half haste gear will have capped eva rate on plain mobs, dropping damage taken by 80% when training an entire family.. at most a WAR can do 50% through pdt gear). There are families you can aoe burn on WAR with just WHM support, but there are also a lot you cannot(such as anything leveled up). You can substantiate time to a degree killing plain mobs, but being able to bump yourself up 150 min in a half hour is very helpful when you're in a situation where you can't be engaged constantly(camping timed spawns with competition, for instance). WAR is usable, it's not practical. Ideally, everyone would have the jobs/characters I have and be able to have all procs at anything they want, but that's not the way it is.. if you have to choose between one of the two, you go for NIN hands down.

[EjinCaitsith]

but you're still sacrificing survivability for an absolutely minimal change in killspeed.

This is where i disagree. Besides a few NMs, WAR has no problem full timing hasso and with 5hit, retaliation, enhanced restraint, superior DA, and blood rage, the change in kill speed is far from minimal. You're crazy if you think Kannagi can keep up, it only shines in the fights where not getting hit is important, which is very few and far between. For those few fights, like Apademak or Bukhis, nin or mnk would be better.

nin+whm is definitely easier to play, but chances are you aren't utilizing the whm's maximum potential. whm can get 22-27tic refresh inside of abyssea(15/20 atma + 7 gear). Chances are in a fight with a ninja tanking; the whm is just sitting there twiddling their thumbs with full mp. Using war+whm utilizes the maximum potential of both jobs, and although harder to play, the benefit is much faster kills.

[Mojo]

I'm not quite sure how Sobek or Ketea even made that list. They're easy with a WAR or MNK tanking. In regards to the other mobs, yes I would change jobs (although to be honest, I'm on NIN 90% of the time anyways so this never really occurs.)

I don't see how you've addressed anything that wasn't already addressed by previous posters. I'm not even sure what you're trying to point out other than that you can tank things with MNK. I never said that WAR is more practical then NIN, it never is. It's just ridiculous to claim that WAR isn't a respectable choice for routine Abyssea farming while MNK is. If the question, does a MNK have more utility than a WAR for Abyssea farming, was posed, then answer is an overwhelmingly fuck no for most situations and if you really think that MNK has some edge over WAR for the majority of activities then you're incredibly biased.

Lastly, in regards to cleaving, the difference in killspeed between a WAR and a NIN is so tremendous that you would probably achieve better results using the Fanatic's Powder that so commonly appear in large amber boxes if dieing is a legitimate concern (which it can be.)

[The Blackrose]

Spoiler: show

http://www.flipside-ls.com/Soneldar/UkonTroll.jpg

[Mojo]

A+, would unspoiler again.

[Atoreis]

This is where i disagree. Besides a few NMs, WAR has no problem full timing hasso and with 5hit, retaliation, enhanced restraint, superior DA, and blood rage, the change in kill speed is far from minimal. You're crazy if you think Kannagi can keep up, it only shines in the fights where not getting hit is important, which is very few and far between. For those few fights, like Apademak or Bukhis, nin or mnk would be better.

nin+whm is definitely easier to play, but chances are you aren't utilizing the whm's maximum potential. whm can get 22-27tic refresh inside of abyssea(15/20 atma + 7 gear). Chances are in a fight with a ninja tanking; the whm is just sitting there twiddling their thumbs with full mp. Using war+whm utilizes the maximum potential of both jobs, and although harder to play, the benefit is much faster kills.

If you can full time hasso on mob then on NIN you dont need to cast shadows at all and in this case Kannagi maybe wont keep up but the different will be minimal.

[Atoreis]

Lastly, in regards to cleaving, the difference in killspeed between a WAR and a NIN is so tremendous that you would probably achieve better results using the Fanatic's Powder that so commonly appear in large amber boxes if dieing is a legitimate concern (which it can be.)

If the ruby light is a problem then WAR needs to cleave with cataclysm. In this case it needs to change atmas and NIN can do something like this -> Gale+RR+ultimate and still kill KI nms in like 2min while AEing bunch of mobs for te/trigger (farming triggers is by far most time consuming thing when getting empy in longtime runs).

[Virg]

Grats Lazybo Almace85 and the first 85 Empyrean for our group.
http://i51.tinypic.com/242daj6.jpg

[lolwut]

I've dual boxed both Sobek and Ketea with War+Whm mule without issue, they probably shouldn't be on this list. I agree with the assessment on Tristitia, Apademak, Amphitrite, Alfard and Bukhis, they're all annoying on War.

Alfard is tanked from behind and Serpentine Tail dispels counterstance, the hp advantage of Mnk has never been make or break on it in my experience. I prefer tanking on Nin over Mnk for both Amphitrite and Alfard as well, since neither Mnk nor War is ideal for them.

Just by virtue of the fact that it was narrowed down to handful small of mobs that are actually problematic for War tanks, I'd say the divide isn't nearly so pronounced as was initially implied.

[Thorny]

I'm not quite sure how Sobek or Ketea even made that list. They're easy with a WAR or MNK tanking. In regards to the other mobs, yes I would change jobs (although to be honest, I'm on NIN 90% of the time anyways so this never really occurs.)

I don't see how you've addressed anything that wasn't already addressed by previous posters. I'm not even sure what you're trying to point out other than that you can tank things with MNK. I never said that WAR is more practical then NIN, it never is. It's just ridiculous to claim that WAR isn't a respectable choice for routine Abyssea farming while MNK is. If the question, does a MNK have more utility than a WAR for Abyssea farming, was posed, then answer is an overwhelmingly fuck no for most situations and if you really think that MNK has some edge over WAR for the majority of activities then you're incredibly biased.

You're still reading the wrong part of my post, are you drunk? I know you're not stupid, but really, every post I made had 2 sections.

Section 1: Personal experience with WAR's downfalls due to my character configuration. Yes, job changes are included and the reasoning was explained. I never said it applies to everyone.

Section 2: WAR vs NIN in practicality. Nothing about MNK. Jesus.

To put it simply:

-In a single fight, MNK is almost always a better choice than WAR.

-In an extended farming situation, NIN is almost always a better choice than WAR.

Lastly, in regards to cleaving, the difference in killspeed between a WAR and a NIN is so tremendous that you would probably achieve better results using the Fanatic's Powder that so commonly appear in large amber boxes if dieing is a legitimate concern (which it can be.)

Really? 4 minutes pulling + 40 seconds killing vs 4 minutes pulling + 20 seconds killing? It's a 7.6% difference, I don't see how you can call that tremendous. Furthermore, are you implying you get a powder for every single pull?

[Byrthnoth]

(Related: Nin is a much safer puller for lowman cleaving than WAR in my experience)

[Mojo]

So you're going to reduce this one to an attack on my character or some other fallacy? Perhaps you should reconsider what you've actually written. From your very first post regarding this, you seemed to come to this conclusion.

WAR is for large groups that don't need to make the most every member, it's place in a small group is limitted to maximizing red procs if you're farming for a while and don't want to risk any no-KIs(IE: WAR + NIN + WHM gathering 3 sets for something then job changing to kill).

This seems to be your stance throughout all of your other posts as well, but as others and I have pointed out, it's not a fair assessment by any means and deviates far from reality.

And again, in regards to cleaving. I have possibly the best Aeolian Edge set you can have and am so thoroughly unimpressed with the process that I prefer to simply divide into groups of NIN + WHM (who is checking chests as I go) and BLM and kill our own mobs. That's if we haven't got enough time extensions killing the various mobs that we're otherwise required to while going about our business, which is quite rare. You might not get a powder every pull, but they are AoE and you really only need a few pulls to get all the time you would ever need. There's also Fanatic's Drinks/Tonics that you can fall back on (which can also come from chests.) Lastly, if you do happen to exhaust all of those resources, you can always have your WHM follow you around and do smaller more frequent pulls (still probably faster than Aeolean Edge.)

[NynJa]

You're arguing with Thorny...realize that.

[Thorny]

The largest portion of time in both edge and single targetting is running to new mob, repops are about 1min regardless so the most you can reasonably expect single targetting is ~3 monsters/minute if you find 4 in a small area and keep pace. How useful aoeing is depends on the monsters involved, but it's pretty easy to beat 3/minute anywhere but konschtat:

Tahrongi - bats(2.5 min pull, 17 mobs) coeurls(4 min pull, 28 mobs)
La Theine - Froggies(2 min pull, 23 mobs) Puks(3 min pull, 22 mobs)
Attohwa - Chigoes(90 sec pull, ~25 mobs), Mandies(3 min pull, ~20 mobs)
Vunkerl - Bats(2 min pull, 22 mobs), Funguar(3 min pull, ~25 mobs)
Misareaux - Squibs/Apkallu
Altepa - Mandies/Detectors
Grauberg - Pugils/Detectors
Ulegeruand - Not sure, detectors should work but i'm sure there are others as well

Many of these will net you twice the killspeed of single targetting, without the hassle of having to side target most of your weaponskills.

[Mojo]

In my typical Abyssea runs I've never found it necessary to kill more than 3-4 'cleavesworth' of mobs to get the time that I need. The time that it takes to change atmas, go to wherever you need to, and then change back is worth considering. You might have overlooked the fact that some of those mobs have 5 minute repops making them poor choices for cleaving anyways. I'm not going to say that cleaving isn't good for building time in some situations, I've found it to be plenty helpful in those long Empyreon weapon farming runs. However, regardless of all of this, it's still possible to cleave safely on WAR and it's nearly or in many cases more efficient than NIN.