Final Form Magian Weapons

[Hitoseijuro]

but they also said they wanted to relics to always be the best weapon (in an interview iirc).

^This is basically what I was referring to. I *think* they continued to hint/imply/or say that by 99 they wanted that to be so either in that interview or another. However Amok also knowing/reading that one part means Im not going crazy or seeing things. Ill try to find the interview if I possible can to verify this, unless its all wishful thinking on a statement by them that meant something else.

Perhaps some relics will just be situationally better than Emp/mythic weapons on some given situations and the other weapons will pull ahead on other situations. Relics like bow/gun/sword/scythe/shield/G.Axe/h2h all seem to have a nice versatility that if further improved could work out to be real good in a proper situation.

[Byrthnoth]

I think you maybe reversed Scythe (Empyrean better on hard stuff due to Quietus, right? Could also make the argument that Apoc is better because you can gear more defensively and play more aggressively.)
Mandau is competitive with Twash, but I'd change the rating to "almost as good as or equal to" unless you're in a situation where you can't SA/TA.
GKT is true, but Zanshin makes that a little rough.
GAxe is closer outside Abyssea than you propose, comparable to H2H in that you sacrifice some damage and gain some durability.

[Virg]

GAxe is closer outside Abyssea than you propose

I second that. Outside 90Brav is a lot better than I thought it would be. I also still find the Aftermath to be quite usefull in lowman situations where MP can become an issue.

[Atoreis]

If you are low on pdif you also start to lsoe oon accuracy and Apoc has +35 advantage. 10% haste advantage let you equip more offensively too.
Big no for Gaxe. They are nowhere near the situation of h2h. why?

Gaxe:
ODD 30% vs ODD 10%(?)
Raging rush 3.0 35% STR Ukko is 3.0 with STR 60% Ukko can self SC light.
Base damage from weapons is almost the same

H2H:
ODD is eyeballing about 20% on Veret and only on left hand. Relic has triple on main and about 10% so they even out.
Vsmite is 4.25 and FH is 4.0 with 25% bonus. Both are 60% FH is VIT for MNK is pretty high in base and equip.
Base damage on Spharai is about 11% higher.

[Arthars]

kikoku is very close to kannagi outside abyssea.

WS wise, Hi is only a 4 hit jin. you either crit a "4 hit jin" for super damage, or u dont for average damage. Jin on the other hand has very consistent above average damage. their average is very close and jin benefits more from DA....but the para on kikoku is no joke fucking sweet and the +35 att may actually put kikoku the better dot weapon

but as usual, i only parse WS....i lazy to focus full 1 hour per parse for dot >_<

as for spharai, at least FH is better than asurian fist finally at lvl 90

[Byrthnoth]

I was assuming you'd use Metatron, considering the level 90 boosted version is probably better than Raging Rush outside Abyssea.

Metatron: 3.75 fTP (inc 25% boost and 25%DA), 60% STR, can't crit
Ukko's: 3.5 fTP (inc 25%DA), 60% STR, can crit <--- Better, but not by a huge amount

Beyond that, it's Damage Taken -20% and 35 Acc vs. 20% ODD and 15 STR

-20% damage taken is about all you can expect to gain swapping out Haste on Catastrophe with the Apocalypse you praise, and you sacrifice no other DD stats with Bravura.

[nivlakian]

Vsmite is 4.25

I think this should be 5.25? (2.25 + 3)

[Arthars]

h2h has no argument.....vere is offensive and spharai is defensive

idk how u can argue which is better, its just like ochain vs aegis.

[Atoreis]

Hmm I forgot about MT you are right but I still think it is much more behind Ukon then Spharai is behind Veret.

[Hitoseijuro]

Veret and only on left hand.Vsmite is 4.25 and FH is 4.0 with 25% bonus.

Small nitpick, but its 5.25.

Also can you varify the left hand ordeal? I actually have jotted down a few instances where I caught left hand did around 700-800 damage or more which would indicate ODD kicking, I didnt continue to record it as Ive been looking for the exact testing that stated this and also writing of as chatlog/animation lag. If thats the case Id like to redo those tests just to reverify.

[Arthars]

yes ODD ONLY proc on left hand for vere

[Atoreis]

h2h has no argument.....vere is offensive and spharai is defensive

idk how u can argue which is better, its just like ochain vs aegis.

No.

H2h is on of the few Empyrean that ODD has low impact. ODD on Veret sux ass and relic has triple not double damage. 10% on triple is like 20% on double. They have very close DPS maybe even Spharai has better with +28 attack and more counters. FH should avarage 1900 on mobs where Vsmite avarage 2000 w/o impetus and about 2750 with impetus and that is only advantage that Veret has over Spharai.

[Arthars]

FH should avarage 1900 on mobs where Vsmite avarage 2000

no where near that number lol my LS mate got both lvl 90 and FH average is just around 60% of VS

dont put ftp into expectation of how WS damage can be for relic WS cos relic ws dont work that way.

as for ODD on vere, its the same as having any 1H empyrean dualwielding. left hand or right hand doesnt matter for H2H because you still punch with both hands no matter what

if 1h empyrean ODD can proc on off hand, the proc% and damage will still be the same as it is on main hand

finally, last but not least, 10% to proc relic triple attack is being generous. It is prolly only around 5%. idk maybe someone parsed 10% which made you think that way

[Atoreis]

The problem is ODD on this left hand on Veret is NOT 30 40 50% like on Kannagi for example.
I have no proof that is why I want to test it soon.

[Arthars]

kannagi's ODD is prolly not 30% either for 100% tp its about 20%-25% tops

same as you, i have no proof but 30% is too high a % for me not to have noticed if someone tested and mentioned elsewhere

2H seem to proc around 30% eyeballing prolly because thats the only weapon we swing unlike dualwield/dualfist. and also kannagi/kamome swing faster than vere punching and may affect what we feel about ODD rate

yea we should test the real ODD %

[Zag]

No.

H2h is on of the few Empyrean that ODD has low impact. ODD on Veret sux ass and relic has triple not double damage. 10% on triple is like 20% on double. They have very close DPS maybe even Spharai has better with +28 attack and more counters. FH should avarage 1900 on mobs where Vsmite avarage 2000 w/o impetus and about 2750 with impetus and that is only advantage that Veret has over Spharai.

Lol at trying to make final heaven = victory damage.

Victory smite averages 3500-4500 damage period. I use it on IT mobs, I use it iron giants, I use it on rani, shinryuu and a bunch of other mobs that are IT mobs and not just some weak worm in Abyssea latheine. Rarely do I see a VS do a measly 2k damage.

With Impetus on, you are going to see VS start reaching the 5k damage range.
You forgot to mention that you need Sneak attack for final heaven to even reach higher numbers which is also sad. 1900 is pitiful damage.

In abyssea, your counterattack seems to be so high eyeballing in the 70% range that the extra counter from spharai wouldn't even matter. If a mob has a TP move or something that cannot be countered at all its still irrevelent.
----

Short version

Vere blows Spharai out the water by a huge margin. No spharai owner even comes close in parse. So glad I sold my byne bills and got a vere.

I soloed the iron giant in altep with vere 30 mins faster then my spharai friend who soloed it. Same atmas.

[Atoreis]

Lol at trying to make final heaven = victory damage.

Victory smite averages 3500-4500 damage period. I use it on IT mobs, I use it iron giants, I use it on rani, shinryuu and a bunch of other mobs that are IT mobs and not just some weak worm in Abyssea latheine. Rarely do I see a VS do a measly 2k damage.

With Impetus on, you are going to see VS start reaching the 5k damage range.
You forgot to mention that you need Sneak attack for final heaven to even reach higher numbers which is also sad. 1900 is pitiful damage.

In abyssea, your counterattack seems to be so high eyeballing in the 70% range that the extra counter from spharai wouldn't even matter. If a mob has a TP move or something that cannot be countered at all its still irrevelent.
----

Short version

Vere blows Spharai out the water by a huge margin. No spharai owner even comes close in parse. So glad I sold my byne bills and got a vere.

I soloed the iron giant in altep with vere 30 mins faster then my spharai friend who soloed it. Same atmas.

You missed the part "outside abyssea" so yeah full fail.

[Pendulum]

So far off base..

[Zag]

You missed the part "outside abyssea" so yeah full fail.

ya I was gonna edit, I was too slow...... I read the previous page. Final heaven is still weak, its not doing 1900 outside of abyssea that easily without /thf. The mods on like VS is 4.25 4 hits. FH is 1 hit at 4.0 or something like that. People forgot to post that part. and STR mods are better then VIT mods imo for MNK. With perfect dodge in the game, the counter on spharai especially when subbing /nin is almost irrevelent now anyways.

MNK has way too high evasion, way too high counter already plus perfect counter, and 3 shadows from /nin. You won't be getting hit regardless cause you will most likely counter no matter which of the 2 weapons you use. And like I said, the TP moves, most go through the shadows and through the counter of course so either weapon will still get you taking damage too.

If spharai mnk is subbing /nin he loses out on damage big time I think. I also think the triple proc on spharai is more like 5%. The triple proc on relics is very low.

I rather use hundred fists with aftermath 3 with vere and keep hate with VS if im tanking then have a weak spharai using hundred fists and then losing hate cause they can't do any WS damage so they can't use their counter anyways lol.

EDIT: Counter on spharai will give you an edge when subbing warrior though obviously. I should have pointed that out.

[Atoreis]

ya I was gonna edit, I was too slow...... I read the previous page. Final heaven is still weak, its not doing 1900 outside of abyssea that easily without /thf. The mods on like VS is 4.25 4 hits. FH is 1 hit at 4.0 or something like that. People forgot to post that part. and STR mods are better then VIT mods imo for MNK. With perfect dodge in the game, the counter on spharai especially when subbing /nin is almost irrevelent now anyways.

MNK has way too high evasion, way too high counter already plus perfect counter, and 3 shadows from /nin. You won't be getting hit regardless cause you will most likely counter no matter which of the 2 weapons you use. And like I said, the TP moves, most go through the shadows and through the counter of course so either weapon will still get you taking damage too.

If spharai mnk is subbing /nin he loses out on damage big time I think. I also think the triple proc on spharai is more like 5%. The triple proc on relics is very low.

I rather use hundred fists with aftermath 3 with vere and keep hate with VS if im tanking then have a weak spharai using hundred fists and then losing hate cause they can't do any WS damage so they can't use their counter anyways lol.

EDIT: Counter on spharai will give you an edge when subbing warrior though obviously. I should have pointed that out.

Well yeah but Im talking here more about regular fight. I know Veret is better for zerg with HF because Spharai lose all purpose then and you can also stack Impetus, blood rage etc.

As for FH damage I was talking about avg on capped cratio and EM mob:
This set +my base 92VIT is avg:

WSC ~62
pDIF ~2
Base with fSTR ~98
fTP ~4.65
WS bonus 28%

(98+62)*2*4.65*1.28=1904