Final Form Magian Weapons

[Zag]

I'm really sorry because I like you but a lot of what you wrote is just very wrong lol.

Low flaws I found:
BLM: mythic in VW beats all ToM staves
RDM: "Hopefully they make RDM a good dd/tank at level 99" - What??? lol
BLU: "Almace mythic" Probably just a typo?

Bigger flaws:
NIN: Lol... paralyze is nice bonus but making any argument that it makes Kikoku a defensive weapon and by this reasoning situational like Veret/Spharai is just wrong lol. Kannagi is better - accept it.
SAM: "3 hit build might be very possible at level 99+ merits." You realize that would need like +40sTP or something like that? Wont happen. "ODD seems irrevelant on SAM compared to other DD jobs." Looking at parses of Masa SAMs they ratio for melee damage varies from 30 to 45% so the ODD is still a solid DMG boost. "I wanna rule it a tie but the base damage AND acc increase from amano just beat out all the STR+ masamune gives to its WS." If you would say for overall damage then maybe it could be true in uncapped acc situation but you wrote "to its WS" which is very wrong. 2 base dmg advantage of Amano will obviously lose to 8.67WSC from +17STR on Masamune.
Currently even 90 Masa beats 95Amano if accuracy is capped and thats the case for 95% events now I think.
PLD: "Burtgang is once again for defensive and almace/excal for offensive. PLD is a TANK job so burtgang would be my number 1 sword choice outside of abyssea." That clearly shows you havent played on PLD outside abyssea hehe. PLD is a tank job thats true and you know whats more important than getting a little less damage as tank? Keeping hate ^^ Without Almace I would just run after mob swinging at it and watching ppl getting killed hehe. Unless you play with 4x Anni/Yoichi Rngs as DDs Almace is required to keep hate. Especially when mobs has partial/full hate reset and you need to get it back fast (CDC wing CDC helps a ton with that).
RNG: Outside of abyssea Jishnu is not better than Namas or Coronach so no its again not defensive vs offensive weapon. Relics win all the way especially if you consider that w/o taking hate you can shot/WS from sweet spots when DDing on fanatic force you to stay on very bad spot for Bow.
COR: Lack of experience again. Wildfire is a great WS outside especially for VW. Regein/saveTP let you spam it and it has lowered enmity. DP will have no chance dmg wise. DP is only good when you need QD dmg exceptionally like for Pil shield but still 300M just for those moments seems a waste.
"BST with mythic and PUP with mythic... their pets will wreck shit." Thats only true for something like solo and for mobs below IT and maybe for abyssea. Pet even on AM3 have no chance with even DD WHM if this WHM has marches+haste+stalwart+RCB for example. On something like VW when you have save TP/regain/stalwart etc. pet will have no chance and will be beat by like 5-10x by some real DD. Aymur is a weapon you want to make if you play BST a lot and mainly solo or in pet party.

I like your opinions and thats why I asked for opinions. I completely forgot Masamune and Amano has very similiar base damages. The other weapons are behind by like 6+ dmg or more from what I remember off my head.

If I was PLD, I would do Ochain and Almace all day. BUt thats just being biased and should not take away from aegis and burtgang. You seem to forget that burtgang has +emn doesn't it?

BLU almace, I meant empyrean LOL... That was a very stupid typo.

COR: I admit, I don't know shit about wildfire. I didn't know it had reduced emn properties like the relic bow and gun do. That makes a huge difference especially considering that the WS is fucking awesome. All the CORs I seen just spam quickdraws though so I was used to DP type gameplay. COR is one of those jobs that everyone plays differently on.

BST: If I could only do 1 mythic, I would not be doing BST. Its cool that it has aftermath on pets too but I never expect it to beat "real DDs". It would be one of the last weapons on my to do list for mythics. I'm sure its enough to make a BST fanatic have a boner though.

RDM: I always liked RDM tanks... Sucks they nerfed bind,dispel etc emnity for rdm or /rdm to tank. They only have cure IV like a PLD has cure IV so it brings me back to tank status. NIN is also a tank that has enfeeble magic so it reminds me of NIN and PLD to an extent. I miss RDM tanks, thats all.
The mythic sucks ass regardless and the almace is the bomb still but people will diss you for using your almace on rdm in non-abyssea zones.

[Alvein]

Its 18 a tic with ghorn and Daurdabla which is way more then your standard mage gets in abyssea.

typical whm/rdm with MM, another refresh atma and nobles is 19 a tic right?

[Kalasin]

What kind of mage uses 2 refresh atmas though?

Gjallar+Harp is far from useless right now. While you may not notice the difference much having a 16-18 people ally with more than a single BLM and 3 or more healers, you do notice it once you do a fight with less and can't hit every proc within seconds. It does make a huge difference and speeds the fight up by a fair bit.

[Jem]

If I was PLD, I would do Ochain and Almace all day. BUt thats just being biased and should not take away from aegis and burtgang. You seem to forget that burtgang has +emn doesn't it?

I have an Ochain and I would swap it in an instant for an Aegis. Ochain is nice and all but Aegis is superior for actual tanking. There are very few instances where you would die if using an Aegis but not if you had an Ochain. The same is definitely not true in reverse though.

Heavy magic damaging mobs can still fuck you up with an Ochain in 50% MDT. Heavy physical damaging mobs don't necessarily do the same if you replace that Ochain with an Aegis.

And it also seems that heavy physical damaging mobs you can just throw DD's at anyway whereas the magic heavy mobs tend to fuck up your melees more.


Atm my Ochain basically just equates to 'Jem, you supertank these mobs 2-3 hours whilst we do the fun stuff'.

[Darkmagi]

What kind of mage uses 2 refresh atmas though?

Gjallar+Harp is far from useless right now. While you may not notice the difference much having a 16-18 people ally with more than a single BLM and 3 or more healers, you do notice it once you do a fight with less and can't hit every proc within seconds. It does make a huge difference and speeds the fight up by a fair bit.

wtf else would a mage use? MM ambition apoc and you are set to never die in abyssea and not have to worry about reraise.

[Koyangi]

I run with MM, ambition, and apoc, never looked back.

[NynJa]

What kind of mage uses 2 refresh atmas though?

Why would you bring a bard or rdm to abyssea though?

[Atoreis]

Why would you bring a bard or rdm to abyssea though?

I am sorry but I need to join club "bashing Nynja"...

None said to bring this to abyssea.
Coolbeans meant to give refresh as big as in abyssea for outside. Tho he said that pretty lame and actually Fievel was the one who explained it.
Coolbeans then mentioned WHM/rdm in abyssea for comparison.

Summing this up:
I feel corrected about gjallahorn tho wouldn't 12 tic w/o gjallahorn be enough in most cases(especially considering its much more with refresh spell and equip between casts)? In VW you have fuck tons of temps now and they alone are enough for 99% of the time. What other events you have on mind that would require 18tic ballads and 12/tic wouldnt be enough?

Nynja I think you bitching like little girl. Try reading posts before answer(or rather before you try bitching about them)

[Limlight]

ope maybe my information is incorrect then. I'll fully admit to knowing absolutely nothing about the job dnc as a whole. We have two people who are nuts about the job in shell and they've been explaining it to me. They said something about the extra step that the mythic gives being very nice for solo/low man stuff (which they do all the time, they duo like crazy with their dnc's).

as for the ghorn, I was under the impression that it still gives superior marches, and having fulltime superior marches on your dd job would be pretty sweet. That was my line of thinking with it anyway.

[Kalasin]

I wouldn't, I didn't even know we are talking about Abyssea and thought that was just referring to as an example(blahblah average abyssea mage has 19/tic whereas horn/harp is only 18), since the initial arguement was that having a Gjhorn was pointless now. If I had to play WHM I'd rather use MM MM(fastcast) Apoc instead of 2 refresh+apoc, though.

Back to the point, Horn/Harp is far from useless outside Abyssea for groups not playing in alliances.

[dasva]

Might not be unless but is it worth the effort of making a relic AND the most painful empyrean path?

[Kyte]

Sure, if you fucking love bard (and I know someone who does, and yes- they do have both).

[Viar]

COR: I admit, I don't know shit about wildfire. I didn't know it had reduced emn properties like the relic bow and gun do. That makes a huge difference especially considering that the WS is fucking awesome. All the CORs I seen just spam quickdraws though so I was used to DP type gameplay. COR is one of those jobs that everyone plays differently on.

From what I've heard the reduced enmity from WF isn't as high as relic bow/gun, and most of the WF COR I pt with in VW got hate fairly easily (including COR WS in full enmity- set) But overall it should still generate less enmity than DP. It's also a better weapon for physical WS such as slug with higher base dmg and high AGI.

On the other hand DP also kinda suffers from different elemental staff/ws/QD you use....dark shot can't enhance WS dmg unless the mob already has a dispel-able effect for you to land it, if you do ice/earth shot you'd need ice/earth staff then you can't enhance leaden salute dmg, if you use pluto then elemental QD dmg sucked etc, unlike WF you can just full time vulcan's and fire shot+WF and enhance all QD/WS dmg.

DP does have some advantage Arma doesn't have, higher WS frequency and firing speed, able to deal different elemental dmg and not restricted in fire element only, and better AM at 300 TP(._.) and make it not entirely useless unlike most other Mythic, but over all Arma is more versatile and probably more useful in most of the situations. Unless you're fighting fire resist mobs, WF spam with an Armageddon is really all you need.

Edit: And there are no such thing as everyone plays differently.............if you're sitting at 100% TP, and there are no other reason to hold you back, you should WS. There's no such thing as "DP style gameplay" that you only QD and don't WS unless you're solo/fighting mobs you can't WS and so on. 95% of time you should WS and use all that TP you gained.

[dasva]

From the little testing I did WF seems to be a percent reduction. But it's kinda incomplete since hard finding good testers to work with.

As far as QD goes. QD with DP and off element staff will still do more than QD on arma with same element staff by alot

[Viar]

From the little testing I did WF seems to be a percent reduction. But it's kinda incomplete since hard finding good testers to work with.

As far as QD goes. QD with DP and off element staff will still do more than QD on arma with same element staff by alot

If you're in Abyssea maybe, if you're outside I highly doubt the difference is very big(I can't seem to find the info about enhanced QD dmg on the internet, so I only guessed the number based on SS from Fiendishone), and could be make up easily with higher WS dmg. COR is also a job with much higher WS frequency than QD frequency especially in VW, and I believe higher WS dmg can easily pull ahead outside. Lower enmity means you can WS a bit more as well.

I do forgot the fact that if you're not restricted to fire shot only, you can do QD elements based on different weather/day and gain another 10% boost. Tbh I don't think DP is bad weapon at all, just that Armageddon is also very good so DP kinda overshadowed by it.

Edit: Nvm, I found it, QD dmg+35%

[dasva]

Inside or out wont effect the how much better one is at QD then the other. 35% boost will still be bigger than 15% boost. Now arma will have some more base dmg which should give it another 2-7% more QD dmg depending on which lvl you have but that still puts DP ahead by a decent margin not even counting day effects.

But yes obviously ws dmg will do a decent bit more on arma. Enough to overshadow the QD usually... but will it be enough to overshadow that and occasional deal double/triple dmg too? Idk not sure if anyone has tested proc rate and such of that. Though I do find it kinda funny that am2 on it doesn't give MAB for a job that uses mab so much. Shame too it would probably put DP ahead on ws dmg then

[Viar]

From the little testing I did WF seems to be a percent reduction. But it's kinda incomplete since hard finding good testers to work with.

As far as QD goes. QD with DP and off element staff will still do more than QD on arma with same element staff by alot

Did a bit of math, based on the formula on wiki:


DP:

(59+77)x2=272

367 with DP bonus

403 with weather

Arma
(70+77)x2=294

338 with staff


QD with DP and off element staff has 29 more base dmg compare with Arma with same element staff before calculating MAB buff/gears/mob resist etc. And 65 more base dmg if DP owner QD on day with same element. It's really small, and not enough to catch up with WF outside of Abyssea IMO.


Inside of Abyssea more QD dmg is enhanced by the atma, so the dmg difference is greater. Outside the dmg difference is really small that WS can easily catch up.

[dasva]

Those atmas enhance ws just as much as they do QD. Actually more really since + element dmg for leaden.

Also your math uses best case scenario numbers. Like not using best bullet. Not using af hat. And ya know someone actually making a lvl 95 armageddon... If you do something more reasonable like say af hat, lvl 90 armageddon and Omphalos Bullet it becomes more like 431 or 454 vs 363. So 68 to 91 more.

Now say assuming 170/180 agi before MAB/mdb, staff/ws boost or mdt wildfire should do around 1234 or 1480 after fire shot. Leaden salute would do 740-845 or 888-1014 after dark shot depending on tp.

So far Armageddon should handily win in terms of dmg unless mob has heavy mdt or fire resistance.

No idea on how much shooting you can actually get done in there though so hard to figure aftermath would factor in. Still a fun gun

[NynJa]

I am sorry but I need to join club "bashing Nynja"...

...

Nynja I think you bitching like little girl. Try reading posts before answer(or rather before you try bitching about them)

I get english isnt your first language...but the very post I quoted "who uses two refresh atmas". There are no refresh atmas in voidwatch (atleast not directly, according to https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Category:Atmacite), so what else could have the person been talking about if it wasnt abyssea? Thought so, gfy.

[Viar]

Those atmas enhance ws just as much as they do QD. Actually more really since + element dmg for leaden.

Also your math uses best case scenario numbers. Like not using best bullet. Not using af hat. And ya know someone actually making a lvl 95 armageddon... If you do something more reasonable like say af hat, lvl 90 armageddon and Omphalos Bullet it becomes more like 431 or 454 vs 363. So 68 to 91 more.

Now say assuming 170/180 agi before MAB/mdb, staff/ws boost or mdt wildfire should do around 1234 or 1480 after fire shot. Leaden salute would do 740-845 or 888-1014 after dark shot depending on tp.

So far Armageddon should handily win in terms of dmg unless mob has heavy mdt or fire resistance.

No idea on how much shooting you can actually get done in there though so hard to figure aftermath would factor in. Still a fun gun

The reason why I didn't use the best bullets is because not everyone has it...I know a couple of CORs used to have one but not anymore, and it also kinda require some VW grinding that's not that accessible to everyone and requires a bit of luck.

Also, dark shot needs to land first to enhance leaden salute dmg, so if the mob has no dispel-able effect on, you will get "your dark shot has no effect" msg and it won't enhance leaden salute dmg. That favors WF even more because you can pretty much always land fire shot unless you're weakened, but you don't always fight mobs with dispel-effect on(and even if they do someone else in pt may dispel it before you). I believe it's better to just use elemental shots for dmg if you're a DP user.

And yes I know someone's making a lv 95 armaddeon...kinda...............I'm holding all my plate drop from VW for lv 95 myself , although I don't really buy plates or rush for lv 95 since I'm also making DP atm and all the money goes to crazy expensive alexandrites. Would rather spend money on DP instead of AGI+2 Armageddon tbh.