Final Form Magian Weapons

[Darkmagi]

Anyone with both will tell you to do Apoc before Rag. Job changing Relic vs a DD power house. Rag also requires a lot more work in terms of situational sets.

How does rag require more sets than apoc....? Apoc requires sets for 2 weapon skills, aftermath pdt/mdt set, aftermath tp set, and an aftermath last resort/march set. Ragnarok only requires sets for 1 WS, and requires no aftermath sets. Also hardly "jobchanging" and there are various fights in which the gained advantages of apoc will serve no purpose. It isn't as clear cut as you make it.

[Dotsudoku]

I'll never understand why people continue to talk about the advantages of Apocalypse as if they're still relevant in most situations. I'm sure it makes you a beast of an independent DD in Neo-Nyzul, but it doesn't serve to benefit you by a measurable amount in Voidwatch, Einherjar, oldNyzul, Salvage, Dynamis, Limbus, or any other event where there's always a healer a few steps from you with unlimited MP.

[Darkmagi]

Seriously, the only event that I seriously wouldn't mind an apoc for currently would be neo-nyzul.

[Atoreis]

So I've seen some 99 Yoichinoyumi's busting out 3-4k Namas Arrows on stuff outside of Abyssea and my question is, are all relics more or less capable of this kind of damage at 99? I wonder if even Geirskogul could match that kind of damage since Geirskogul more or less has similar stats (Namas=2.75ftp/Gungir=3.0ftp 40%/40% vs 60% WSCs). Yoichi+Arrow has more base damage than Gungnir but only by like 12DMG depending on arrow). The only difference being that RNG gets more attack from berserk+VS, but assuming attack is capped I wonder if Geirskogul has potential at 99.

Thats not really true since fSTR exist.

and cap fSTR2 for 99 yoichi is 44.... Its also usually achievable so true dmg for Yoichi with Gargouille Arrow is 222 when Gungnir in Geirkogul set wont break 175 probably. On top of that stacking fSTR for Yoichi is also stacking STR mod for Namas and there is many pieces with AGI on top of STR for example set like this. In the end Yoichi with Namas will have much much higher base dmg from WS.

[Taint]

I'll never understand why people continue to talk about the advantages of Apocalypse as if they're still relevant in most situations. I'm sure it makes you a beast of an independent DD in Neo-Nyzul, but it doesn't serve to benefit you by a measurable amount in Voidwatch, Einherjar, oldNyzul, Salvage, Dynamis, Limbus, or any other event where there's always a healer a few steps from you with unlimited MP.

10% is always an advantage. Whether its sitting in 50% PDT at capped haste or swapping in windbuffet belt over a haste option. You can also easily 5hit a 167 damage weapon and make extremely little sacrafices, don't want to 5hit, stack ACC,ATT,STR,DA,TA to your hearts desire. Darkmagi doesn't know shit about Apoc and continues to prove it on every forum I read.

If you spreadsheet Rag under all current situations. (fodder,abyssea,bukhis(est),Ig) I can put them towards my endgame Apoc sets and it takes 4 different Rag sets to math out on top.

As for 99 Relics there are only 4 in my LS (rag will be the 5th, my 3rd) We low man ADL so finishing my 3 Relics will be fast then we will just merc them.

[Limlight]

Since it was recently talked about I figured if I asked this question here. I'm currently working on a Relic for DRK and I won't do both Apoc and Ragna so I was wondering which would be better not only for VW but for things like Ein v2.0, limbus etc. Lowman situation I have BLU which would probably perform better and the only DD jobs I have are DRK and DRG but I like DRK more so really I need DRK to be my powerhouse so I'm willing to hear any advice.

aside from the fact that I, for the most part, side with taint/jem on this. Do the relic that attracts you the most. For myself it will always be scythe for drk since I grew up as a drk using scythe. It's just a personal preference.

They're both extremely powerful weapons and will fill your role as a dd quite well. It's really at the point that it doesn't matter and it's all personal preference. Both have pro's and con's but again they both get the job done. (resolution is really awesome looking lol)

[Dotsudoku]

10% is always an advantage. Whether its sitting in 50% PDT at capped haste or swapping in windbuffet belt over a haste option. You can also easily 5hit a 167 damage weapon and make extremely little sacrafices, don't want to 5hit, stack ACC,ATT,STR,DA,TA to your hearts desire. Darkmagi doesn't know shit about Apoc and continues to prove it on every forum I read.

For the record, I'm not being facetious.

The simultaneously capped PDT/haste advantage still begs the question of when this is useful, quite the same as the drain from Catastrophe itself. As far as all of the examples I listed go, it really isn't.

As far as being able to beef up other stats in lieu of the 10% haste that's no longer required of you, does any of that manage to tip the scales offensively in favor of Apocalypse? If it doesn't, I'm not really sure I see the point in mentioning it.

[Atoreis]

For the record, I'm not being facetious.

The simultaneously capped PDT/haste advantage still begs the question of when this is useful, quite the same as the drain from Catastrophe itself. As far as all of the examples I listed go, it really isn't.

As far as being able to beef up other stats in lieu of the 10% haste that's no longer required of you, does any of that manage to tip the scales offensively in favor of Apocalypse? If it doesn't, I'm not really sure I see the point in mentioning it.

The point in Taint logic (I think) is that Ragnarok wins for pure damage but the difference is so small that Apoc giant boost to survivability is in the end much better trade off. On top of that in many situations when Ragnarok would win you need to play it as aggressively as Apoc which will often put you on the edge of dying even with healer.

I will also highly disagree with you about usefulness of Apoc...
"beast of an independent DD in Neo-Nyzul" is actually several times more important than minor gain in damage in all events you listed.
NeoNyzul is very time limited event that requires optimal things to greatly increase chance of success.
Several % more damage in other events will only cut event time by seconds. On top of that its not even always true because when you make 3man Salvage you can go with brd instead of whm when using apoc and that will put it above whm+ragnarok combo. Same for Limbus. Einherjar is a playground but assuming you would want to lowman it and use DRK then Apoc + brd is again superior.
So in the end only event in reality (by reality i mean that most old event is lowmanned and brd+apoc is superior) when Ragnarok win is VW. Only advatage from that win is few sec cut from fight that its supershort and easy anyway.
Some could say dd advantage on aDL could be important but Apoc can ride souleater almost full fight with ADL and still be pretty safe when with ragnarok it can end up with death so Ragnarok advantage if any is pretty small.

Summing up its now best NeoNyzul weapon vs best VW weapon. For me the choice would be obvious.

PS: I have Apoc and doing Ragnarok but if I would need to choose one then Apocalypse for sure.

[Dotsudoku]

I don't need to be reassured that Apocalypse is beastly in NeoNyzul, I've just yet to hear a legitimate reason for increased defensiveness elsewhere. Apocalypse is a "giant boost to survivability" in one event. In every other event, it appears to be a Ragnarok-1 with a novelty that won't actually increase anyone's productivity. Granted, that one event may be more important to a given player than any other event, and if that's their reasoning behind creating the weapon, kudos. Suggesting that it's universally "job changing" is more than disingenuous, though.

[Jem]

I don't need to be reassured that Apocalypse is beastly in NeoNyzul, I've just yet to hear a legitimate reason for increased defensiveness elsewhere. Apocalypse is a "giant boost to survivability" in one event. In every other event, it appears to be a Ragnarok-1 with a novelty that won't actually increase anyone's productivity. Granted, that one event may be more important to a given player than any other event, and if that's their reasoning behind creating the weapon, kudos. Suggesting that it's universally "job changing" is more than disingenuous, though.

It's mainly for lowman events or events where people are likely to switch off. Like if I lowman with the wife as BRD DRK THF then I'm going to be using Apoc rather than Ragna. I could have gotten away with using Ragna in some of these instances but it would have resulted in more downtime than just using Apoc.

Or like in Dynamis with the LS tonight I used Apoc just because it eased the workload on others and if I had used Ragna then I would have probably died at times. It gives you/other people more room for error, kinda of like a crutch, without losing massive amounts of damage rather than changing to a more defensive set-up. That being said, I do agree this is a flimsy reason as it can be countered by getting people to suck less.

Going DRK/WAR to non-VW stuff is also terrifying with Ragna compared to Apoc.

It entirely comes down to what you would use your DRK for I guess.

[Nightfyre]

And it's hardly like Apoc is a shabby DD.

That doesn't address the issue. The difference between Ragnarok and Apocalypse is the sort of difference that has seen jobs shunned from various events throughout FFXI's lifespan. Apoc's current position as an "acceptable" choice does not erode Ragnarok's position as the superior choice for most situations.

Even in Neonyzul I have to question the impact of Apocalypse. Aftermath is frequent but inconsistent, so Apoc's DPS is going to be depreciated vs the comparisons I usually run (which generally assume fulltime AM for Apoc). Embrava skews damage towards weaponskills, especially with all the running around you do, so the vast superiority of Resolution is a big factor for killspeed. Embrava also reduces the impact of Cata aftermath in defensive situations given that you only need 12% haste in gear to cap delay reduction with Haste + Embrava + LR. Mekira set is already 8% haste, depending on your gear options (haste/pdt ASA legs are potentially attractive here, though otherwise limited by Ogier's. More likely Goading) you'll give up 1-4% PDT on Ragnarok vs Apoc. Apoc is also more likely to kill its x-hit by equipping PDT gear. Cata potentially lets you go all-out on DD gear, yes, but that only allows you to match a PDT Ragnarok (assuming fulltime engaged/AM so obviously less in Nyzul) unless Last Resort is down. Further, unless I'm mistaken it doesn't work on the plentiful undead monsters in Nyzul.

I dare say I'd favor Apoc in Nyzul, but even there I think you're severely inflating its advantages and failing to acknowledge its weaknesses.

[noodles355]

That doesn't address the issue. The difference between Ragnarok and Apocalypse is the sort of difference that has seen jobs shunned from various events throughout FFXI's lifespan. Apoc's current position as an "acceptable" choice does not erode Ragnarok's position as the superior choice for most situations.

What are "most situations" that matter now?
Neo-nyzul - Everyone agrees apoc.
Voidwatch - Everyone agrees Ragna.
Limbus/Dynamis farming - Change Job.
Abyssea - Change job.

[Taint]

That doesn't address the issue. The difference between Ragnarok and Apocalypse is the sort of difference that has seen jobs shunned from various events throughout FFXI's lifespan. Apoc's current position as an "acceptable" choice does not erode Ragnarok's position as the superior choice for most situations.

Even in Neonyzul I have to question the impact of Apocalypse. Aftermath is frequent but inconsistent, so Apoc's DPS is going to be depreciated vs the comparisons I usually run (which generally assume fulltime AM for Apoc). Embrava skews damage towards weaponskills, especially with all the running around you do, so the vast superiority of Resolution is a big factor for killspeed. Embrava also reduces the impact of Cata aftermath in defensive situations given that you only need 12% haste in gear to cap delay reduction with Haste + Embrava + LR. Mekira set is already 8% haste, depending on your gear options (haste/pdt ASA legs are potentially attractive here, though otherwise limited by Ogier's. More likely Goading) you'll give up 1-4% PDT on Ragnarok vs Apoc. Apoc is also more likely to kill its x-hit by equipping PDT gear. Cata potentially lets you go all-out on DD gear, yes, but that only allows you to match a PDT Ragnarok (assuming fulltime engaged/AM so obviously less in Nyzul) unless Last Resort is down. Further, unless I'm mistaken it doesn't work on the plentiful undead monsters in Nyzul.

I dare say I'd favor Apoc in Nyzul, but even there I think you're severely inflating its advantages and failing to acknowledge its weaknesses.

In a perfect world there is no comparison. With Embrava and a pocket WHM, Ragnarok would bring the pain anywhere anytime.

A high end player with excellent gear,macros and play style, along with excellent support is going to favor Rag. For 99.9% of the player base Apoc is more then an "acceptable" option. Esp. from the support angle, where you won't be the only focus on healers during SE, haste might drop for a few seconds and one or more of your buffs might be dispeled. Drop any buff from the perfect Rag situation and Apoc pulls right back in line. Attack Nyzul,Abyssea,VW all with the same TP/WS set like 99.9% of the population and watch Apoc hold its own. Its the same reason I was able to post parses or me absolutely destroying 99Ukons and 95Rags in parses with my 95Apoc. (extremely well geared players at that) 99.9% of the population will never be able to create your 2nd paragraph let alone maintain it and for the 99.9% Apoc will provide enough flexibility to out pace Rag.

[Darkmagi]

You claim Ragnarok has more situational sets than apoc, this alone demerits a huge amount of your argument. Cata aftermath adds on many additional sets that are required for you to to be optimal, and scythe requires having sets for 2 different WS. Seriously list these many Ragnarok sets that you claim exist, I can't think of anything Ragnarok needs that another DD doesn't, other than the obvious last resort/march TP set(s).

I also clearly understand how Apoc works, it's the superior defensive weapon and the inferior offensive weapon. Shit is situational. Never did I say it was a bad weapon, Explaining my views on it being primarily for defensive purposes on here and FFXIAH is clearly "all forums" though. I can also assure you that a simple generic 1 TP set ragnarok DRK Who plays offensively will always beat an apoc in voidwatch though.

[Nightfyre]

Drop any buff from the perfect Rag situation and Apoc pulls right back in line.

Not even close to true The gap closes slightly, yes, but you're still talking about a ~10% difference.

Tell me, would you choose Bravura over Ukon? BLU or DNC over WAR or SAM?

[Jem]

Not even close to true The gap closes slightly, yes, but you're still talking about a ~10% difference.

Tell me, would you choose Bravura over Ukon? BLU or DNC over WAR or SAM?

I agree with Taint. In any scenario where buffs are missing or getting dispelled or mobs are using dickish moves then I tend to do better with Apoc than Ragna. Maybe I'm just playing Ragna wrong but whenever a mob stunts TP gain/WS frequency or where attack is noticeably under cap for whatever reason, Ragna seems to take a far more substantial hit to damage than Apoc does.

[Atoreis]

Not even close to true The gap closes slightly, yes, but you're still talking about a ~10% difference.

Tell me, would you choose Bravura over Ukon? BLU or DNC over WAR or SAM?

I wouldnt try bringing up BLU being inferior and putting it on the same dd ranage with DNC. You might end up creating a world war 3.

EDIT: I was bored for a moment and I made this TP set for Ryunohige AM3. 5hit ( /sam ) with 40%DA 20%TA from Aftermath 26%haste and +11%crit rate. That could be really a powerhouse. Left earring untouched because I have no idea what to put there since idk priority for mythic's oat and double attack trait.

[Prothescar]

http://www.google.com/url?source=img...0eTuxeXtJXSC1A

[noodles355]

I wouldnt try bringing up BLU being inferior and putting it on the same dd ranage with DNC. You might end up creating a world war 3.

EDIT: I was bored for a moment and I made this TP set for Ryunohige AM3. 5hit ( /sam ) with 40%DA 20%TA from Aftermath 26%haste and +11%crit rate. That could be really a powerhouse. Left earring untouched because I have no idea what to put there since idk priority for mythic's oat and double attack trait.

In a previous post, you shunned bullwhip belt because of it's -75HP. What changed?

[Atoreis]

In a previous post, you shunned bullwhip belt because of it's -75HP. What changed?

Well here its pretty much the only real way to achieve good 5hit and 25% haste and for war it was only some option for a little stronger build. Also I cant really put that new 7% haste belt in ffxiah sets.