Final Form Magian Weapons

[Nameless]

Yes I do, and perhaps more than you lol. You wanna try to ask question? I will answer you.

[ringthree]

Well, it is cuz you don't know what you are doing on that equation. The reason it turns out like that is because you are essentially doing 2 x 0 = 1 x 0, which both should have been 0. Remember you teacher tell you not to do number/0 ? that's what you are doing here to get rid of both zero to yell 2 = 1.

Also, so math tell you 2 = 1 because you are doing it wrong means others who do it right shouldn't rely on it?

This is the most retarded meaningless drivel I have ever read. What the fuck are you talking about? Did you just pick out some words and toss them together? Are you fucking speaking in tongues?

Did mdkuser get banned and this is just his new account?

Jesus christ can we get a fucking ban hammer in here for pchan and this guy?

[Nameless]

oh wow, you are a moron or what, so you think 2 = 1 as well? go back to school my god.

[Nameless]

Also, I have never said Soboro > Hagun. All I was saying, if you can read, is that mob doesn't change the result on Soboro vs Hagun, whichever you like to think is better.

[Konda]

What has happened to this thread?

Have the morons taken over BG just by shear number of asinine posts and driving off intelligent people.

Do you have a fucking clue as to how TP Bonus works? Do you have any idea how STR and base damage and level correction work?

Jesus, this has just gotten fucking retarded in here. What the fuck has happened?

some1 who speaks sense, finally

Well, it is cuz you don't know what you are doing on that equation. The reason it turns out like that is because you are essentially doing 2 x 0 = 1 x 0, which both should have been 0. Remember you teacher tell you not to do number/0 ? that's what you are doing here to get rid of both zero to yell 2 = 1.

Also, so math tell you 2 = 1 because you are doing it wrong means others who do it right shouldn't rely on it?

you're right, It's a common mathematical fallacy which seems fine at first glance, but doesnt stand up under closer inspection.

Just somebody has run some "maths" from some equations derived from test data which uses a random number generator, doesn't mean that it's 100% correct.

just for clarification, you say weaponskilling with this:
http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__...63/Kotetsu.gif

is the same as weaponskilling with this:
http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__...5/5a/Hagun.jpg
as long as the first has attacks 2-3 times, and you're fighting some theoretical mob with infinate defence?


Communisim works on paper, but it has been proven not to work in real life.

[ringthree]

Also, I have never said Soboro > Hagun. All I was saying, if you can read, is that mob doesn't change the result on Soboro vs Hagun, whichever you like to think is better.

You are factually incorrect.

Base Damage is Weapon Damage and fSTR (STR vs. VIT function). fSTR is modified by Weapon Rank which a lower damage weapon could further constrain. pDIF has a level correction function. This is all before you consider the fact that the TP bonus on a Hagun amplifies the difference in Base Damage.

You have no fucking clue what you are talking about.

Let me repeat that because you don't seem to understand.

YOU HAVE NO FUCKING CLUE WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT!

It's like it is fucking 2005 all over again in here.

[Nameless]

Weapon rank does effect your fstr cap, but that's if you can hit the cap. A weapon with higher fstr cap should fare better against weaker mob since you will always reach that cap, as for against harder mobs, you have a chance of not hitting that, making the extra weapon rank meaninigless. Therefore, higher weapon rank is actually more attractive against weaker mobs, which goes against the argument that the comparison will favor hagun against harder mobs.

Listen closely, what I was saying is, if Hagun is better than Soboro against hard mob, it should be better against easier mob as well. Mob difficulty shouldn't have an effect on the effectiveness of this particular two weapons. There is no level correlation factor that make attack increasingly effective in this case, as we all know that attack means more. I am not trying to take a side on which weapon is better against which, but just from a mathematical standpoint, there is no factor that should effect one more than the other against harder mobs.

I understand pdif and cratio totally, me and a few others freaking tested the G/Y/K ratio bonus. But like I said, there is no attack in the case. You really should also show some respect as well as I am pretty well known as someone who knows the math part of this game on this forum.

[ringthree]

Oh, wow. You are pretty well known as someone who knows the math part of the game...

Oh... Jesus... Man... Wow... Can I totally be your friend?

Hagun's TP bonus applies to Weapon Damage + fSTR. As fSTR decreases against harder and harder mobs, the TP bonus favors Hagun more and more. This is especially true when compared to a lower base damage weapon.

This damage is then again factored into pDIF which is level corrected.

Hagun gets better against harder mobs (over better said, Hagun gets worse slower against harder mobs).

But, man... you are PRETTY WELL KNOWN FOR YOUR MATH SKILLS, so man... I must be wrong.

[Limlight]

inc hagun market crash~

/sigh

[Byrthnoth]

inc hagun market crash~

/sigh

This already happened. Sell your Hagun, get Unshomaru, buy Gigant mantles, wait for June. Then sell Gigant mantles to Taru WHMs and BLMs, collect tons of money.

[pchan]

Maths can be used to prove a number of things which aren't correct.

for example:
let a=b
a^2 = ab
a^2 + a^2 = a^2 + ab
2a^2 = a^2 + ab
2a^2 - 2ab = a^2 + ab - 2ab
2a^2 -2ab = 2ab - av
2(a^2 - ab) = 1(a^2 - ab)
therefore 2=1

hey look 2=1, I used maths so it must be right. Anyone with half a brain knows you can't divide by zero.


What's more, you're from ex and you guys thing perdu WAR is better than amano SAM.

You can't math properly, go back to learn division and multiplications

[pchan]

if ppl know the math, they wouldn't even begin to think that Hagun is better for harder stuff. ftp doesn't become more effective on high level mob, attack does. Soboro and Hagun both don't have attack on them, therefore, the difference, whichever you think is better, should be exactly the same against easy or harder mobs excluding tp feeding problem. You don't need to be a SAM expert to know how SAM and this game works. And no, base damage doesn't make you hit for zero less, attack does.

both weapons have a different melee/ws split, therefore pdif affects them differently, because Gekko has an attack bonus.

[Limlight]

This already happened. Sell your Hagun, get Unshomaru, buy Gigant mantles, wait for June. Then sell Gigant mantles to Taru WHMs and BLMs, collect tons of money.

still selling for around 2 mil on my server. hasn't even come close to crashing.

Hell I just got another today!

[Konda]

You can't math properly, go back to learn division and multiplications

The maths is fine, it's the fact that you're dividing both sides by a^2-ab (since a=b, it's 0).

Now, stop spewing your bullshit and go eat some garlic or surrender to something.

[Byrthnoth]

still selling for around 2 mil on my server. hasn't even come close to crashing.

Hell I just got another today!

2mil is down from 3 on my server.

[Nameless]

Oh, wow. You are pretty well known as someone who knows the math part of the game...

Oh... Jesus... Man... Wow... Can I totally be your friend?

Hagun's TP bonus applies to Weapon Damage + fSTR. As fSTR decreases against harder and harder mobs, the TP bonus favors Hagun more and more. This is especially true when compared to a lower base damage weapon.

This damage is then again factored into pDIF which is level corrected.

Hagun gets better against harder mobs (over better said, Hagun gets worse slower against harder mobs).

But, man... you are PRETTY WELL KNOWN FOR YOUR MATH SKILLS, so man... I must be wrong.

First of all, you are the one came out attacking assuming I don't know anything at all. Second of all, you are the one who brought out the respect tag, so I was just tagging along. To answer to your post:

Hagun's TP bonus applies to (D+fstr+WSC) x cratio x ftp, it is a 20% bonus give or take on ANY mob since you are doing A x B as A being the above, and B being your tp bonus. Hagun does nothing to your cratio (before you assume I don't know anything again, G/K/Y has bonus that add to your ratio, which will effect your cratio, but that doesn't come from the weapon as Soboro will benefit from the same exact factor). It does have effect on your D and fstr (if you cap it that is), which will make you WS harder yes. But Hagun does not benefit more from that against harder mob than against easier mob, which is what I have been saying over and over, in fact, it will likely have less benefit against harder mobs since you will not always be capped fstr to take advantage of that extra fstr cap.

Let's just put this in perspective:

Assuming capped fstr, which is a big if on harder mobs, and since that's what you seem to assume as well. Soboro with its 40 damage will have 12 fstr, and Hagun 16. And assuming WSC for both are 95 (this should be the same for both weapons since non of them give extra str). So in the end, Soboro = 12 + 40 + 95 = 147, and Hagun = 16 + 75 + 95 = 186. Hagun has TP bonus, so at 100% tp on a gekko the ftp is 1.875, on Soboro it is 1.5625. So 147 x 1.5625 = 229.69 for Soboro, 186 x 1.875 = 348.75 for Hagun. So we know none of this is going to change either against hard mob or easy mob right? The only thing that will change is fstr, but we assume both are capped because both have the same STR, and if anything, the one that will go uncapped first will be Hagun since it has higher cap.

So assume on an easy mob, you cratio is 2.25 capped for both, and on hard mob, your cratio is 1.50 for both. The reason I say both are the same is that neither weapon has attack on them, so your cratio should be the same for both weapons on hard or easy mobs. So in the end, Soboro vs Hagun against easy mob = 229.69 x 2.25 vs 348.75 x 2.25 = 516.8 vs 784.69, difference is 52%. On hard mob, 229.69 x 1.5 vs 348.75 x 1.5 = 334.54 vs 523.13, difference is again 52%. That's what I mean by mob shouldn't effect the comparison of the two weapons, if one is better than the other, it should be for all mobs.

You seem to think that I was picking sides on which weapon is better, I was not. I was responding to the person who think Soboro > Hagun on easy mob but Hagun > Soboro on hard mob, and I said that doesn't make sense cuz they should be consistent unless well, he was talking about Soboro with a bow, then mob difficult will absolutely affect the comparison since G/K/Y have ratio bonus, which fares better against harder mobs.

I hope this explains my position. I think math has its place in the game as long as it is used correctly.

[Thorny]

Konda is a retard.

As Pchan said, Unsho > Soboro > Hagun, pending Soboro's procrate. If it's 30/50/20, that's correct.. if it's 25/50/25 then it'd be Soboro > Unsho > Hagun. I'm not sure how this is hard to understand, it's another application of the same comparison I did for soboro vs unshomaru a couple pages ago.

Regardless, unlike what Pchan said, polearm is going to be better in most proper situations.

[ringthree]

Konda is a retard.

As Pchan said, Unsho > Soboro > Hagun, pending Soboro's procrate. If it's 30/50/20, that's correct.. if it's 25/50/25 then it'd be Soboro > Unsho > Hagun. I'm not sure how this is hard to understand, it's another application of the same comparison I did for soboro vs unshomaru a couple pages ago.

Regardless, unlike what Pchan said, polearm is going to be better in most proper situations.

On what mobs?

[Thorny]

On what mobs?

For polearm? Ones with low defense/eva comparative to your att/acc, which is almost everything if you use pizza and have proper buffs.

For Soboro? The differences between them are largely irrelevant to mob, as accuracy and attack effect them in the same proportion. There's a slight variation in how much it wins by because of differing tp/ws splits and attack only effecting tp damage if gekko's attack is already capped, but not enough to change the winner. Soboro will beat hagun on anything.

[Nameless]

tp/ws split, whoops, that's what I was missing. pchan and Thorny are both right.

I was under the assumption that there is no wasted TP from Soboro and that all the extra hits from DAing and TAing will result in extra WS in the same proportion. That's obviously not the case since there will be plenty of times that you TAing or DAing when there is only 1 more hit to 100%. Good catch, tho extra tp should mean higher WS due to ftp, but not enough to neglect the wasted hits still.