Final Form Magian Weapons

[CDF]

Sorry, that was a complete mis-characterization on my part. I wasn't thinking about independence of OAT and DA even though the term "stacking" is vague. (Does that mean you multiply the rates so quadruple attacks are possible? Does that mean OAT and DA are independent? Addition of rates would correspond to "mutual exclusiveness.")

For your 15% DA, 40% OAT situation, under the independence model, the effective DA rate is 43% and the TA rate is 6%. For Radec's situation (10% DA, 40% OAT), the effective DA rate is predicted to be 42% and the TA rate, 4%, but the data do not support independence of OAT and DA.

That leaves mutual exclusiveness (addition of rates, not that you can tell the difference between an OAT proc and a DA proc) or DA not processing at all, which are two possibilities that exclude triple attacks. The latter case would mean OAT weapons are a waste of time, given that OAT seems to be 40%*. The former case seems the most plausible at the moment.

* It would be a waste of time for great axe at least. Don't know about the others.

[pooter01]

DA and OAT cannot both proc off the same swing, or off another DA/OAT. So with a 2handed weapon, most swings per round with OAT and DA is 2. As far as how the multiply. if you take 100 rounds, with 40% OAT and 15% DA.

OAT will occur 40 times, meaning 140 swings. DA will occur on 15% of the remaining 60 swings(the ones that are not already swinging twice). so 9 more times, for 149 swings. Which is a total DA rate of 49%(as mdk stated).

Edit: also, have others have stated, you must account for TP overflow when trying to decide how good the OAT weapon is. Lets say you have a 6hit(1WS 5swings). there are two basic scenarios. You WS after 5 swings, and you WS after 6 swings because the last swing was a DA when you only needed a single. This will occur about 33% of the time, so instead of 5swings between WS's, you are averaging 5.33 swings.

115/5=23 WS's
149/5.33=27.95 WS's
27.95/23=22% increase in WS's, even though you take 49% more swings.

[CDF]

I didn't read mdkuser's post carefully. Fair enough. So, either of these are reasonable possiblities

1) Mutual exclusivity (mere addition)
2) "Directional" exclusivity where one checks before the other (but you can't tell the difference, like with Joyeuse)

[darkhorror]

115/5=23 WS's
149/5.33=27.95 WS's
27.95/23=22% increase in WS's, even though you take 49% more swings.

This needs some corrections, since in the 115 swings you have 15% DA, this means that it's also going to over swing sometimes. Also since you started with 15% DA on the base to 49% DA that is only a 30% increase in swings and not 49%. Recalculate the overswings, and the WS increase and they should become quite close. Then if the extra tp adds more WS damage that could help it a little bit then along with the extra damage done from the extra hit,...

[Hanyoko]

Can someone confirm if the final upgraded Magic DMG+3 gives -4 perp then...?

It probabaly wont; if i'm understanding what was discussed the following is going on.

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Staff_Trials
Going to use the "light path" for these examples

Trial 834 : Teiwaz -> Light Affinity +1 (functions like NQ light staff)
Trial 835 : Teiwaz -> Light Affinity: Magic Acc+1 (NQ light) & Light Affinity: Magic Damage+3 (functions like HQ+1 light staff [20%])
Trial 836 : Teiwaz -> Light Affinity: Magic Acc+3 (HQ+1) & Light Affinity: Magic Damage+1 (NQ light)
Trial 837 : Teiwaz -> Light Affinity: Avatar perp -4
Trial 838 : Teiwaz -> Cure potency +15%

So it seems by specializing down a path you give up one aspect of the affinity to boost another. So if the +3 from 835/836 (or other similar elemental trials) does really correspond to a HQ+1 then the following is true

Magians lets you create a "free" NQ elemental staff (834)
Magians lets you create a superior Damage staff (835) with a slight accuracy boost
Magians lets you create a superior accuracy staff (836) with a slight damage boost
Magians lets you create a superior pet perp. staff (837)
Magians lets you create a superior cure staff (838)

And again.. if that were true oh gosh what were they thinking... its like... a macro nightmare

Speculation : a synergy that lets you combine the results from the trials into a single, unique named item?

[Byrthnoth]

Speculation : a synergy that lets you combine the results from the trials into a single, unique named item?

And then through synergy, you can combine all 8 from the different elements and make a rumored Prism staff? Yeah, I don't want to think about that either.

[Hanyoko]

And then through synergy, you can combine all 8 from the different elements and make a rumored Prism staff? Yeah, I don't want to think about that either.

Given the Pro/Con nature of the elements I doubt there is a "Prism Staff" But I could see a 'fire, light, thunder, wind' and 'water, dark, earth, ice' pair.

Between synergy and augmenting they seem to be able to break the previous "caps" on what they can cram onto an item.

(then lets also hope for a unified obi / gorget)

[Oulanbator]

So melees would get a weapon with +4 Str Dex Vit Agi Int Mnd Chr +12 atk eva +10 MAcc MaEva +8 acc -5%PDT +5 MAB MDB +30 Mp ?

I can't wait to dual-wield these, it would be like wearing 2 haubies plus 2 SH+1 plus Arhat's and extra shit all at once.
Sounds a bit overpowered... not gonna happen.

[Havok]

I don't see it being a synergy thing. It will probably be more advanced trials later on (june/september/december updates) that will let you combine the 'final' weapons of each path. This would make the new set of 'ultimate' weapons they have talked about perhaps? That was my first thought when I saw all of these specialized weapons at least.

[pooter01]

This needs some corrections, since in the 115 swings you have 15% DA, this means that it's also going to over swing sometimes. Also since you started with 15% DA on the base to 49% DA that is only a 30% increase in swings and not 49%. Recalculate the overswings, and the WS increase and they should become quite close. Then if the extra tp adds more WS damage that could help it a little bit then along with the extra damage done from the extra hit,...

You're right, the chance of overflow with 15% DA is 14% oddly. Creating 22.3WS's per 100 rounds before accounting for acc.

so 30% increase in swings, 25% increase in WS's

[CDF]

From Markov chains (couldn't think of anything better), I have limiting overflow probabilities .1304447 given 15% DA and .3381485 given 49% DA. Just wondering how you got your values.

[mdkuser]

From Markov chains (couldn't think of anything better), I have limiting overflow probabilities .1304447 given 15% DA and .3381485 given 49% DA. Just wondering how you got your values.

for 2hander you don't need to do something that sophisticated; example, 6 hit build; enumarate all possibilities of attack and double attack sequences leading to 100TP, and calculate their probabilities, then average: I did it here for example:

http://www.bluegartr.com/forum/showt...=90728&page=22

post 651, with an exact formula. I've got a similar formula for 5 hit builds, and for 7 hit build with love halleberd. this method is impossible for, say, mnk (or thf), because you've got a 15 hit build minimum ( depends on tp returns from ws), and you can have up to 7 attacks per round (faiths baghnaks), so I had to use random walk techniques to get a result, but its just simpler to do a program simulation and emulate , say, one million attack rounds, and you'll get an correct estimate up to teh 3rd digit with that.

[pooter01]

nothing fancy, just listed every possible scenario and added the odds of the ones that cause an overflow. Rounding was probably a bit off though, cause my calculator only keeps track of the last two decimal places.

[Malacite]

So, just curious here about DPS and math because I'm not sure how to calculate this 100% right.


For the Isatu (DMG 34, 232 delay OAT) + Perdu Blade combo, I got around 13.2 DPS, with 15.8 factoring in the OAT which I reduced to a 1.2 mod since it's being Dual-Wielded. Is that right, or do you leave it at 1.4?

At 1.4 that's just monstrous as it gives NIN a combined DPS of over 18... also begs the question if the Katana is even worth it since Mozu with DMG +7 provides around 15 DPS as well with Perdu in offhand (idk how TP gain is affected)

[LinktheDeme]

I was advised to post this here from the random question thread,

I was wondering about

Dragonmaw :
DMG 11 Delay 590
DMG+28 Delay + 70
Occasionally Attacks twice.

With silver bullets (DMG:81, Delay:240 ) so I think a net damage of 120 with net delay of 900

vs

Astrild
DMG: 70 Delay: 524
DMG: +10

with kabura arrow (DMG +38 Delay: 90) for a net DMG of 118 and Delay of 614

I was thinking that the occasionally attacks twice gun would come out ahead since low base damage on gun isn't a huge factor for marksmanship since the damage comes from the ammo.

A few things I was wondering is:
-Could someone post the math difference or at least explain the formulas how to calculate the damage while taking into consideration snapshot merits, Velocity shot and the other snapshot pieces (outside of salvage/assault). Also the % chance of rapid shot occurring
-If the % is known for the double attack and if it is double attack rather than double damage (resulting in double tp essentially).
-If the double attack works on each individual hit of barrage
-If the wRANK(I believe that is what it is called) is based on base damage or base damage + augmented damage. And how it would influence the calculations.

[Motenten]

Little bit of info on the Cat's Claws with Defense Down as an additional effect. It appears that the AE proc rate is roughly 5%. This held up for the ~6000 hits needed to complete the final trial (took 7 hours to get 250 procs....), and a short test afterwards with the final weapon.

That's radically different from the claimed 50% proc rate on weaker mobs for the scythe. Scaled relative to delay, the scythe procs 4x as often as the H2H. Even if the rate really should have been the lower 20%-35%, the scythe still procs twice as often over time.

I'll be adding a tab to the next version of KParser that shows status-type additional effect proc rates so that this can be more reliably tested by others.

[NeoForte]

Little bit of info on the Cat's Claws with Defense Down as an additional effect. It appears that the AE proc rate is roughly 5%. This held up for the ~6000 hits needed to complete the final trial (took 7 hours to get 250 procs....), and a short test afterwards with the final weapon.

That's radically different from the claimed 50% proc rate on weaker mobs for the scythe. Scaled relative to delay, the scythe procs 4x as often as the H2H. Even if the rate really should have been the lower 20%-35%, the scythe still procs twice as often over time.

I'll be adding a tab to the next version of KParser that shows status-type additional effect proc rates so that this can be more reliably tested by others.

When I did Polearm it proced fairly often. Vs Crabs in Vunkerl Inlet I could get 2-3 procs on a single crab, usually reappling it 2-4 hits after Def Down wore off. Was always fun doing Def Down, Scissor Guard, then reppling Def Down immidiately afterwards heh. But final weapon with +10 I see it doing it fairly often. Usually doesn't have to wait long till I see it go off.

[CDF]

for 2hander you don't need to do something that sophisticated; example, 6 hit build; enumarate all possibilities of attack and double attack sequences leading to 100TP, and calculate their probabilities, then average: I did it here for example:

http://www.bluegartr.com/forum/showt...=90728&page=22

post 651, with an exact formula. I've got a similar formula for 5 hit builds, and for 7 hit build with love halleberd. this method is impossible for, say, mnk (or thf), because you've got a 15 hit build minimum ( depends on tp returns from ws), and you can have up to 7 attacks per round (faiths baghnaks), so I had to use random walk techniques to get a result, but its just simpler to do a program simulation and emulate , say, one million attack rounds, and you'll get an correct estimate up to teh 3rd digit with that.

Yeah, you don't need a transition matrix for a simple case like 100% DA and max 2 hits per round. Letting D be the event that a double attack occurs in a single round, it follows that the probability of overflow is

http://latex.codecogs.com/gif.latex?...+ P(D|DD)P(DD)

and the joint probabilities are straightforward to compute from independence of events.

How would you account for situations with non-100% hit rate and like 5 hits possible per round, though? It's easier to set up the appropriate transition matrix, accounting for how much overflow might occur (1, 2, 3, or 4 hits in excess) along with the probabilities of 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 hits. Then obtain the appropriate n-step transition matrix to get the probability of overflow for any x-hit setup (limited only by the matrix dimensions). You can make the transition matrix as large as necessary to encompass dual-wield scenarios.

Example: 95% hit rate, dual-wielding with 15% double attack rate and 15 hits required to attain 100 TP. Obtain the overflow probabilities (probability of ending with 16, 17, and 18 ) from a 14-step 19x19 transition matrix (you don't really need to go to 14 because probabilities quickly "converge"). They are .4246476, .11025272, and .008391217. The average number of hits is 15.67033, which agrees with an alternative method of obtaining it (brute-force conditional expectation).

You say you have a formula for Love Halberd, but do you know how it really works? If it's like Fortitude Axe, it won't quadruple-attack. If you know that already, are you sure you know how DA interacts with it (where applicable)? If you're wrong, then you would have to go back to the drawing board. Alternatively, you could just crank out the appropriate transition matrix without deriving hard formulas.

NIN DPS: DPS figure follows from the concept of a rate.

OAT and DA: OAT great axe is junk if OAT and DA work like Joyeuse. We'll see.

[Priran]

it's probably the logic that H2H weapons hit more often and faster than a 2H weapon, so the proc rate on a 2H weapon is much higher.

[pooter01]

it's probably the logic that H2H weapons hit more often and faster than a 2H weapon, so the proc rate on a 2H weapon is much higher.

Except that even proportionally they are way off. By that method, the rate should have fallen between 18%-20%(figured off 183 delay per fist). The problem is, that h2h is different, and only a small portion of the total delay is on the weapon. so it appears to be calculating with 33 delay, instead of 183. resulting in a proc rate that's 1/4th of what it should be.