Final Form Magian Weapons

[mdkuser]

As a comparison to a standerd monk, Wargfangs + footwork is anywhere from about tied, to about 10% ahead. (math was done on alla mnk forums).

Wargfangs working with footwork was great news for anyone who actually plays mnk, considering how we got shafted on broken mechanics on most trial weapons.

same maths posted as vegetto on the what's better thread? ive only read the destroyers maths so far, but there is is a lot of retarded stuff there. Ill check footwork later, but he seems to be comparing a crappy destroyer build to a good footwork build, namely 88% accuracy with destroyers ( meat ... isntead of sushi/pizza), has wrong numbers on the hits untill 100TP ( he ignores the contribution of double attacks and kick attacks to WS speed), and doesn't use AF gloves during boost... Ive got destroyers do +40% dmg to what he finds lol.

Also about the above discussioon about SJ: make a comparison with NIN SJ. Or the same SJ at least. if you're going to give /drg or /sam to footwork, then destroyers gets /war (=+20% dmg minimum). Wiki says you need a H2H weapon equiped for footwork, so cannot use seigan nor hasso btw.

Also to people saying lol birds. Birds are mobs whose stats are completly known thats why they are the perfect targets for maths. You can replace birds by any mobs with known stats on which monk shines ( ie. any mobs with level < 85).

[pooter01]

Originally Posted by pooter01
blah blah blah some crap you assume I don't know

As a comparison to a standerd monk, Wargfangs + footwork is anywhere from about tied, to about 10% ahead. (math was done on alla mnk forums).

I'm reading this and he tested destroyers and footwork for 5 minutes each, against greater colibri (aka pink birds, you hypocrite). I shouldn't even need to explain why this is a shitty meaningless test.

I don't think MNK could 6-hit with Footwork

Hmm. already shown that mnk can reach as low as 5hit, with 6hit being very viable /sam.

subbing SAM for Store TP, Meditate... ...just sounds like it can't be good for damage

While not the same as double attack, I'm pretty sure both of those have a positive impact on the number of weaponskills one would perform.

Footwork adds 18 DMG and 180 Delay, according to wiki.

Close, but also not right.

That's about 50% of your post i quoted earlier, all with wrong information. Seems i didn't have to go far to "assume" you didn't know anything about footwork.

As for the comment about pink birds, While I understand where they stand as a good starting point, I was also partly refering to the fact that you instantly pulled birds+sam into the disscussion when this should be destroyers vs wargfangs in multiple situations. not polearm sam vs wargfangs against pink birds.

[Byrthnoth]

I'm horrendously lazy, so would the low-damage Wargs be useful in any fashion for a Footwork setup? Or is just using Dragon Kick not going to beat Destroyers?

Low damage Wargs would be just as good for a Footwork build as the high damage Wargs, assuming the proc rate is the same (have any tests been done?)

[pooter01]

The combined proc rate in the initial tests was ~53% including kick attacks and brutal. which fit the 40% model.

Predicted rate with standard 40% OAT proc, 12.5% base KA rate, 5 KA merits and Brutal: 1 + .05 + .16625 + 0.3135 = 1.52975, or a ~53% double attack rate.

It wasn't an incredibly large sample size, and margin of error is still large enough to skew it. However it was good enough to atleast prove that it works, and that the proc rate is fairly respectable.


Regarding subjobs, the original math posted here: http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.htm...27352024979832 Used /nin for both builds.

/drg for footwork would be optimal, while both /war and /drg work well for non-footwork(depending on situations, /war generally more accepted).

Edit: as far as +17 vs +0 dmg. the main difference would be in Asuran fists damage, as well as jump damage if /drg. (and to a lesser extent counterattacks). as stated if you can get comparable numbers with footwork+DK, as the +17's AF, you should be fine. Howling fist and dragon kick both appear to have some sort of attack boost similar to Gekko, but to a lesser extent. howling's seems to be higher than dragon kick's as well. I suppose that's one thing we need to really test out sometime.

[mdkuser]

you can assume you are attack caped on either weaponskills, it is not an issue. attacks caps at 2*296=592 on greater colibris (dia2), and you should have that much with good attack gear+boost, or attacks buffs. For example my attack for asuran fist with pizza build is >500 and boost makes it 600+, already caped. so either WS will be caped on attack, or almost caped, and it's a matter of fTP versus WSC.

[Priran]

That's about 50% of your post i quoted earlier, all with wrong information. Seems i didn't have to go far to "assume" you didn't know anything about footwork.

For the first two, you separated quotes that shouldn't have been separated. I was explaining why I didn't think 6-hit would be feasible; possible with SAM sub sure, but without Hasso/Seigan it would be half-assed.

For the third, "adding 180 delay" and "setting delay at 480" is the same thing for any situation I can think of, making the same assumption you did when you say that it "adds 18 dmg"; Footwork ignores the DMG/Delay of the equipped H2H weapon and adds those stats to bare-fist values.

As for the comment about pink birds, While I understand where they stand as a good starting point, I was also partly refering to the fact that you instantly pulled birds+sam into the disscussion when this should be destroyers vs wargfangs in multiple situations. not polearm sam vs wargfangs against pink birds.

Learn to read, I am not the one who pulled them into the discussion.

All in all, I give the effort a 3/10. Better luck next time.

[CDF]

The combined proc rate in the initial tests was ~53% including kick attacks and brutal. which fit the 40% model.

Predicted rate with standard 40% OAT proc, 12.5% base KA rate, 5 KA merits and Brutal: 1 + .05 + .16625 + 0.3135 = 1.52975, or a ~53% double attack rate.

It wasn't an incredibly large sample size, and margin of error is still large enough to skew it. However it was good enough to atleast prove that it works, and that the proc rate is fairly respectable.

It was good enough to show that OAT works with Footwork, but no one should be modeling or predicting anything based on a sample of 43/81. Why is the implied OAT rate 33%? (.33*.95 = .3135) Another: given that a regular DA doesn't occur, why are OAT and KA considered mutually exclusive? (.175*.95 = .16625 along with .3135).

Wow, basing calculations off a point estimate...

[pooter01]

Learn to read, I am not the one who pulled them into the discussion.

The rest i can let by as just poor communication. And I do feel you know how footwork works, but yes, you are the one that dragged sam(particular Gkatana) into the equation. You're actually the only person to even mention sam, excluding my one comment about you bringing sam into this. at this point, we could continue to argue over these pointless matters, or we can actually discuss on the math given. all the math so far assumes /nin for both builds. So I might start adjusting things around for /war and /drg for respective builds.

[Priran]

The rest i can let by as just poor communication. And I do feel you know how footwork works, but yes, you are the one that dragged sam(particular Gkatana) into the equation. You're actually the only person to even mention sam, excluding my one comment about you bringing sam into this. at this point, we could continue to argue over these pointless matters, or we can actually discuss on the math given. all the math so far assumes /nin for both builds. So I might start adjusting things around for /war and /drg for respective builds.

I mentioned SAM in comparing the DMG/Delay of Footworks to a bad GKT. But to say I brought up SAM vs MNK on Colibri?

I won't argue that Dragon Kick is anywhere near Tachi: Stupidly-strong...doesn't look like something that should be dismissed out-of-hand. Assuming I'm wrong about a boost to base Damage from Footwork, it's D60 with Kyoshu or D65 with Dune Boots, right? That's not far behind Kurodachi, though admittedly without Samurai's native Store TP. I haven't mathed it nor decided on an arbitrary target, but there are plenty of things that can be adjusted (Tiercel Necklace and Bandomusha Kote can be swapped if Accuracy is still needed after food). For Greater Colibri, I know someone can math it, but I don't know that I could force myself to endure Magian trials just for those things again.

Guess what you're bad at? Here's a hint: it's fundamental.

[Onorgul]

Requires Dune Boots to be equipped to even be near the DMG/Delay of a bad GKT; without Dune Boots and with this weapon it's even worse than the OAT GKT
Dragon Kick is shit compared to any worthwhile 2H WS
No Hasso or Seigan
No 2-hander gear selection
No 2-hander DEX:Acc or STR:Att ratio

Yeah, Priran, maybe you forgot that you said this, which was precisely the reason I brought up Kurodachi? Footwork giving an additional D+18 on top of H2H skill and Kyoshu/Dune brings it well above Kurodachi, for that matter.

[Priran]

This just in: only SAM main gets Hasso/Seigan, 2hander DEX/STR ratios, and heavy armor. Also, pointing out what class of weapon footwork has similar DMG/Delay to is the same as inviting comparisons to the job that uses that weapon. Also also, YGK are the only good 2hander WS. Also also also, I didn't point out that you have to lose the dune boots to have comparable DMG/Delay to kurodachi.

[Malacite]

Wouldn't you just be better off without footwork given that a good MNK/WAR @ 75 (which is viable in a good merit PT; just don't try it in a pick up >_>) will have 15% DA and KA (assuming brutal + 5 Kick merits) that's a lot of attack rounds feeding into multiple asuran fists...


I've never really been a fan of footwork. It was awesome until SE nerfed the TP gain on WS from it, and while I suppose it is nice for HNMs, so's a solid Chi Blast build >

[Nightfyre]

The only things Chi Blast is good for are MNK kite solos and an excuse to use epic Boost macros.

[pooter01]

Also, pointing out what class of weapon footwork has similar DMG/Delay to is the same as inviting comparisons to the job that uses that weapon.

Originally Posted by Priran
Requires Dune Boots to be equipped to even be near the DMG/Delay of a bad GKT; without Dune Boots and with this weapon it's even worse than the OAT GKT
Dragon Kick is shit compared to any worthwhile 2H WS
No Hasso or Seigan
No 2-hander gear selection
No 2-hander DEX:Acc or STR:Att ratio

Again... you're just proving our point. Incase you didn't catch it:

DMG/Delay of a bad GKT.......OAT GKT

[ronin sparthos]

Wouldn't you just be better off without footwork given that a good MNK/WAR @ 75 (which is viable in a good merit PT; just don't try it in a pick up >_>) will have 15% DA and KA (assuming brutal + 5 Kick merits) that's a lot of attack rounds feeding into multiple asuran fists...


I've never really been a fan of footwork. It was awesome until SE nerfed the TP gain on WS from it, and while I suppose it is nice for HNMs, so's a solid Chi Blast build >

SE created Footwork to get rid of the horrible practice that was Chi Blasting MNKs. There are no situations where if you HAVE to have a mnk on anything that you'll want them to charge Chi anymore. Footwork isn't the ideal but it is far and beyond the realm of Chi Blast.

Let's all leave Chi Blast back with HP building Spirits Within DD....

[Priran]

Again... you're just proving our point. Incase you didn't catch it:

I'm comparing it to a GKT because it has similar DMG/Delay, not because I am specifically comparing Footwork MNK to SAM. GAxes, Polearms, and Scythes typically have DMG ratings in the high 90s.

[ZhiGaruda]

Let's all leave Chi Blast back with HP building Spirits Within DD....

To be fair, when preparing for a fight that I have a couple of minutes of downtime (IE: Camping an HNM, or respawn timers for Gods/Jailers) I always build TP to 300 on mobs at camp, go to full HP post-claim, and pop off a big Spirits Within. It's an excellent way to build enmity prior to having high enough enmity for Atonement to be decent. No reason to bash it.

[Havok]

To be fair, when preparing for a fight that I have a couple of minutes of downtime (IE: Camping an HNM, or respawn timers for Gods/Jailers) I always build TP to 300 on mobs at camp, go to full HP post-claim, and pop off a big Spirits Within. It's an excellent way to build enmity prior to having high enough enmity for Atonement to be decent. No reason to bash it.

Pretty sure he's talking about when war/sam/drg/etc used to save TP for spirits and do almost nothing else.

[darkhorror]

It was good enough to show that OAT works with Footwork, but no one should be modeling or predicting anything based on a sample of 43/81. Why is the implied OAT rate 33%? (.33*.95 = .3135) Another: given that a regular DA doesn't occur, why are OAT and KA considered mutually exclusive? (.175*.95 = .16625 along with .3135).

Wow, basing calculations off a point estimate...

It has been shown before that the OAT and Double attacks don't stack. so he uses .05 DA from brutal, then since you can only KA when you don't DA from brutal that's .95*.175 = .16625

Now total DA Percentage from brutal and KA is .21625, and since you can only get the OAT from 1 - .21625 = 78.375%
Then it's 40% OAT(from other tests) on 78.375%( the percentage of time you don't attack twice from KA and DA) so .4*.78375 = .3135 so you get DA percentage on .21625 + .3135 = ~53%

Now I just think we need some more testing to see if the game works so that they don't all stack while using footwork.

[pooter01]

I'm comparing it to a GKT because it has similar DMG/Delay, not because I am specifically comparing Footwork MNK to SAM. GAxes, Polearms, and Scythes typically have DMG ratings in the high 90s.

Also, pointing out what class of weapon footwork has similar DMG/Delay to is the same as inviting comparisons to the job that uses that weapon

You're getting really bad at this...