Final Form Magian Weapons

[ZhiGaruda]

Pretty sure he's talking about when war/sam/drg/etc used to save TP for spirits and do almost nothing else.

Pft, that's still the most efficient way, man. We wouldn't want to feed Genbu TP and then have him smash our Earth Staff PLD's to bits

[darkhorror]

When you talk about hit builds on footwork you must remember that MNK with footwork actually get's one less hit between WS's because they get 2 hits of full TP on the WS. Also if they use asuran fists get 6 extra TP plus what ever comes from store TP. So a 7 hit build on footwork would be like 6 hit build on a 2 hander. Not to mention the attack bonus from footwork, along with the +20 acc and attack that is on KK. With sam roll it's easy to get to the point where you only need 3 hits after WS to WS again with any sub.

Even without the OAT weapon footwork has some very good uses where it works quite a bit better than normal H2H. If you don't have the OAT weapon you can use other weapons with footwork which raise acc and attack. Now I don't use it vs merit mobs but the higher def/evasion endgame mobs it can work very well if done right.

Now with that OAT weapon on footwork it should be even better. I got to finish mine so I can give it some tests.

[mdkuser]

When you talk about hit builds on footwork you must remember that MNK with footwork actually get's one less hit between WS's because they get 2 hits of full TP on the WS.

we know that, you need 5 hits to get TP, period.

Even without the OAT weapon footwork has some very good uses where it works quite a bit better than normal H2H.

when? so far footwork looks decent with OAT weapon IF the 53% true DA rate is true ( sup low sample size). Remember that once you use at least pizza as attack buff ( incomparison to sushi), both set ups will be attack caped on asuran fists, so the difference is even more in favor of dest.

Only use ive ever found so far for foot work is the porogo madames in salvage after a charm ... w

[CDF]

It has been shown before that the OAT and Double attacks don't stack. so he uses .05 DA from brutal, then since you can only KA when you don't DA from brutal that's .95*.175 = .16625

Now total DA Percentage from brutal and KA is .21625, and since you can only get the OAT from 1 - .21625 = 78.375%
Then it's 40% OAT(from other tests) on 78.375%( the percentage of time you don't attack twice from KA and DA) so .4*.78375 = .3135 so you get DA percentage on .21625 + .3135 = ~53%

Now I just think we need some more testing to see if the game works so that they don't all stack while using footwork.

This is an unwarranted conclusion from 43/81 based on an unwarranted conclusion from 81/179. "Stacking" is a meaningless term because it lacks specificity. Now that I see where the calculations are coming from, I point out that you could easily assert (without justification) any prioritizing (ordering) of OAT, DA, and KA and get the same result. You can't even rule out combining the OAT and DA rates via mere addition (Athame with /WAR and Footwork trials).

[pooter01]

just small update on proc rate. with a combined 180 rounds, shows a DA rate of 55%. not sure on the margin of error(assuming still wide), the theoretical DA rate was around 52%. so still on course for ~40% rate similar to all other reported OAT weapons.

[darkhorror]

This is an unwarranted conclusion from 43/81 based on an unwarranted conclusion from 81/179. "Stacking" is a meaningless term because it lacks specificity. Now that I see where the calculations are coming from, I point out that you could easily assert (without justification) any prioritizing (ordering) of OAT, DA, and KA and get the same result. You can't even rule out combining the OAT and DA rates via mere addition (Athame with /WAR and Footwork trials).

The assumption that OAT and DA work in this way are from tests done with other weapons. Now sure it could be different with footwork but till we have some information that it is different seems that calculating it the same way you would for other weapons would be the best choice. Then seeing if it reflects what happens in game.

[CDF]

The assumption that OAT and DA work in this way are from tests done with other weapons. Now sure it could be different with footwork but till we have some information that it is different seems that calculating it the same way you would for other weapons would be the best choice. Then seeing if it reflects what happens in game.

I hope you mean other Magian OAT weapons, in which case, please show me on what basis such a conclusion is made as this thread is mostly shite, yes, most of the 56 pages and counting.

[miokomioko]

I only use footwork to store up to 300% TP. I see no other use for it yet... other than a very seldom dmg/tp boost for a WS.

[Motenten]

CDF: It was calculated that way because we don't have an exact rate to check against, nor confirmed knowledge of their stacking patterns. Using the assumption that they are mutually exclusive leads to the lowest possible final DA value, and it's better for the real value to be better than we estimate than to make comparisons based on an overly optimistic assumption.

[pooter01]

From what i've been able to tell, the exact order of things doesn't matter. but each one takes effect only after it calculates the other.

on 100 rounds(using footwork, and using assumed % of 40% for OAT, 5% DA, 12.5% Kick)

DA > kick > OAT
100+100*.05+95*.125+83.15*.4=150.125 average swings.
Kick > OAT > DA
100+100*.125+87.5*.4+52.5*.05=150.125
DA > OAT > Kick
150.125
Kick > DA > OAT
150.125
OAT > Kick > DA
150.125
OAT > DA > Kick
150.125
Should all provide the same final result.

Giving a final DA rate of 50.125% (wasn't counting Kick merits, which is why it was different from Motenten's rate)

Beyond that, we can assume reasonably that it does behave similar to every other Magian Trial OAT weapon (~40%, does not combine with DA/TA)

[NynJa]

Are still people asking about the proc rate on the add effect weapons? I know someone was adamant about it being a 10% proc rate, and I want to see if his shit was debunked before I post these pics.

or is it still about how good the higher dmg OAT weapons are? >.>

[warbandit]

Not sure if been asked but OAT bow or gun worth going if have ebow already

[CDF]

Why we "know" what we "know":

40% OAT: 432/1064, 95% CI (.3764, .4363), assume rates are integer multiples of 5 (hay, what about 12.5% kick attacks II rate), weakly supplemented by shitty anecdotes (link)

Kick Attacks II rate of 12.5%. Genome of all people (he of the joke assertion of LOLdependent, identically distributed Bernoulli random variables leading to more precise point estimates, without specifying the nature of the dependence) showed indirectly that it can't be 10% (unless you think LOLAGI enters into it). I also saw it on a Japanese wiki, so it must be true.

"Magian OAT doesn't 'stack' with regular DA": not supported by statistics of any kind so far. Conjecture based on prior unspecified "experience."

"The occurrence of DA precludes the occurrence of kicks": is this just assumed as "common knowledge," like "common knowledge" that you can attack 8x/round with Faith Baghnakhs (LOLOLOL)? Kick attacks have been around since 2005...

Proc order with Footwork, specifically DA before KA before OAT a.k.a. "directional exclusivity" (as opposed to mutual): ???????, and like I said order doesn't matter, if it is even true.

[Priran]

You're getting really bad at this...

rofl wow, I just realized how retarded you are

you didn't catch that a post containing this sentence:

This just in: only SAM main gets Hasso/Seigan, 2hander DEX/STR ratios, and heavy armor

was wholly sarcastic? jesus christ dude.

[pooter01]

"Magian OAT doesn't 'stack' with regular DA": not supported by statistics of any kind so far. Conjecture based on prior unspecified "experience."

While there hasn't been a large enough sample size to prove that the rates are not additive (40%OAT + 15%DA = 55% DA rate). It doesn't take a large number of swings to know that they don't "stack" in the sense of Virtue weapons(both OAT and DA occurring on the same base swing for 3 swings). Also, there has been decent evidence that non-magian OAT weapons do not stack additively with forms of DA. I know for one that when my dnc uses Saber dance(50% DA) with joy toy(40% OAT) i don't end up with a 90% rate. it's closer to 70-75%(while not exactly the DA trait). I also believe there have been small samples of magian OAT with /war just to see if they do stack similar to virtue weapons, which also had a small amount of evidence pointing towards the rates not adding. While none of these single tests are 100% conclusive, the many small tests from different aspects do start to draw a fairly clear conclusion.

And yes, as you said, the exact order of which form of extra swings procs first is only important if the weapon may swing 3+ times, of you have Triple attack.

[CDF]

How a non-Magian OAT weapon works does give insight into how Magian OAT weapons might work but by itself doesn't constitute a legitimate working assumption for the Magian OAT. Virtue weapons are rather different from Joyeuse or Ridill etc. although the principle of "DA before weapon property" holds for all of these.

But clearly, if one can observe Joyeuse-style mechanics for a magian OAT weapon, it would help to record what is actually observed (the number of DAs over the number of total attack rounds). Even today people dispute something basic like Joyeuse's proc rate (45% vs. 50%) as though it is so hard to verify over time (not suggesting someone whack a fortification for hours at a time) by using something like kparser which appears to be pretty reliable today in terms of recording DA/KA/TA data, so I'ma NOT take what anyone says at face value without some basic statistics.

So people give enough of a shit to waste their time acquiring a magian OAT weapon but can't take 30 minutes with a controlled parse to help determine if their investment of time was worth it (sunk cost whatever)? Please.

[seiji]

nobody added counters dmg, => favor even more destroyers
wait for OA3-4 to get a competiting footwork build?

[Darkmagi]

You can counter with FW up unless I'm missing something here. Though I could definitely see a 1-3 or 1-4 hit weapon making FW pretty nice. Oh I see what you mean if you were talking about the low damage wargs being a big hit to counter dmg. I don't see 1dmg and 6% crit being all that much of a deciding factor for counter winning destroyers over though.

[seiji]

18 dmg if you go the no VNM way

[Appie]

I only use footwork to store up to 300% TP. I see no other use for it yet... other than a very seldom dmg/tp boost for a WS.

Spharai trial 1. Most awesome JA ever, just for that though =D