Final Form Magian Weapons

[Nauq]

553 melee rounds without brutal earring (15% DA) yielded 48.46% DA.

[Byrthnoth]

Well, we can use these numbers to solve for the original Double Attacking rate assuming exclusivity, however the sample size isn't large enough to really be conclusive.

.4846 (+/-.0417) = n + (1-n)*.15 = .15 + .85*n
.5057 (+/-.0426) = n + (1-n)*.2 = .2 + .8*n

Without Brutal 39.36% (+/-4.9%) = n
With Brutal: 38.21% (+/-5.3%) = n

Spoiler: show

STD (as a ratio) = SQRT(p*(1-p)/n)
The +/- numbers above (95% confidence interval) are 1.96*STD.
I'm not sure exactly how to propagate the standard deviation through, but I'm fairly sure that as long as we assume the other values are exact it will just be modified directly.

40% DA rate still looks like our best bet. You need a much higher sample size to say anything conclusive both about what the base DA rate is and what the interaction between DA and the weapon DA rate are.

[CDF]

I got a PM a while ago with data ruling out addition, and there are no triple attacks, so it likely is similar to Joyeuse. (How else would it work?)

If it is similar to Joyeuse, use a "weighted average" approach and base OAT rate estimation off the number of single attacks (261 of 528 with 20% DA, 285 of 553 with 15% DA):

n1 = 528
n2 = 553
d1 = .20
d2 = .15

p.hat = 1 - (261+285)/(n1*(1-d1)+n2*(1-d2)) (.388201)

se.p.hat = sqrt(n1*(1-d1)*(1-p.hat)*(1-(1-d1)*(1-p.hat))/(n1*(1-d1)+n2*(1-d2))^2 + n2*(1-d2)*(1-p.hat)*(1-(1-d2)*(1-p.hat))/(n1*(1-d1)+n2*(1-d2))^2) (.01841083)

95% CI: (.3521165,.4242856)

40% OAT rate is consistent with the data assuming it works like Joyeuse.

[Nauq]

653 melee rounds with 25% DA (pole grip, askar korazin, relic legs) resulted in 50.84% DA.

[Stoomie]

http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/4...0531233518.png

[ZhiGaruda]

No Walahra turban or Blitz ring, god that scythe is probably going to kill itself..

[Khajit]

I've been wondering. Is it really a good idea to have a brutal anymore with the oat on those weapons? Will it be ok when we have 2~3 times weapons?

[ZhiGaruda]

The only reason, for instance, Brutal isn't optimal for Soboro is because if it proc's on a 3x swing, Brutal will lower that 3x swing down to 2x. For OAT, Brutal is best.

[Nameless]

It isn't as good, but it is still better than any other options.

As for Ace's, that's probably just town gear, since most ppl still think it is a trophy piece...

[Khajit]

Yeah. that was a stupid question in retrospect since there arent any earrings that would beat even 1% da out there.
sam/drg Kurodachi bushi/wyvern perhaps if you dont need the 1 stp?

[Malacite]

plus it can still proc on WS too >.> though I suppose you could just macro that in.

Wouldn't it kind of balance itself out anyway? I mean yes theoretically it can reduce a triple attack to a double (didn't know that before) but it also means you have fewer chances @ a single strike.

[ZhiGaruda]

Yeah. that was a stupid question in retrospect since there arent any earrings that would beat even 1% da out there.
sam/drg Kurodachi bushi/wyvern perhaps if you dont need the 1 stp?

Kurodachi is OAT, not OA two to three times, therefore Brutal still > others.

You'd end up doing Brutal/Wyvern, no real reason to need Bushi anyways, 5 attack is lol and accuracy bonus from /DRG will do miles more than 5 GK skill.

[mdkuser]

You guys act like brutal earring does nothing for soboro, or that it diminishes your damage... this is wrong.

Its true that it reduces the tripple attack rate, but it also *improves* the double attack rate ( obviously), and in the end brutal earring is still an improvement, simplest way to figure it out is calculate your average number of hit per round delay, and see it actually improves.

[ZhiGaruda]

You guys act like brutal earring does nothing for soboro, or that it diminishes your damage... this is wrong.

Its true that it reduces the tripple attack rate, but it also *improves* the double attack rate ( obviously), and in the end brutal earring is still an improvement, simplest way to figure it out is calculate your average number of hit per round delay, and see it actually improves.

Fair enough. I never use Soboro so I would've never made the mistake anyways! But on that note, I imagine that in the rare circumstance you would be using Soboro as SAM/WAR with a Pole grip, these two items would only serve to further improve average hit per round?

[mdkuser]

Fair enough. I never use Soboro so I would've never made the mistake anyways! But on that note, I imagine that in the rare circumstance you would be using Soboro as SAM/WAR with a Pole grip, these two items would only serve to further improve average hit per round?

people generally advertise a second acc earring and acc grip for soboro. pole grip/brutal are still good for caped acc. however I think I remember sword strap + usu feet+body being better than pole + fumas due to DA having half less benefit for soboro than other geat katanas.

[Byrthnoth]

people generally advertise a second acc earring and acc grip for soboro. pole grip/brutal are still good for caped acc. however I think I remember sword strap + usu feet+body being better than pole + fumas due to DA having half less benefit for soboro than other geat katanas.

Actually, Pole is pretty much never the right answer for Soboro 6-hit. Soboro 6-hit will always get more benefit out of Axe grip than Pole, and will get more benefit out of a 3-Acc grip than either if acc is too bad. Heck, consider Rose Grip if it frees up other slots for Haste.

Pole grip is about a 0.1% increase in Soboro WS frequency and a pretty small increase in Soboro DoT. Axe Grip is +3 STR, or about 1 base damage on WS and during TP. Don't need to do too much math to tell that Axe Grip gives much more benefit than Pole.

Editted for better accuracy. I can post the excel sheet I have for this if people are interested.

[Phraust]

As it was my understanding DA gear in general doesn't help Soborro at all. Sure it reduces the % of TA's, and reduces the % of Singles in exchange for more doubles. but those cancel out in most cases if I remember correctly. Other options that add consistent additions like Acc/Att etc. give a stronger improvement over all. I could swear this has been tested time and again with Soborro, Ridill, Merc.Kris B.Scythe... etc... etc... DA gear cancels itself out, if you're only using one weapon, as you would with any 2hander. The only time DA gear was 'acceptable' was when it was used dual wielding, as it still benefited your main hand choice.

For OAT, you're only given 2 choices: either you Attack once or you attack twice; and at a 50% prock rate at worse, you're getting a 2.5% increase form a brutal, which is still worth it.

And finally as far as grips go, one of those stun grips has always amazed me whenever I seen people use it.

[Havok]

If I'm thinking about it correctly, since single attack rate is higher than triple, you will actually cancel out slightly more single procs than triple procs. So +DA gear will still give a (much smaller) benefit.

My question is, will brutal still be the standard choice for dual wielding oat axe/ridill? The benefit will be even smaller than with a regular axe/ridill, but it is still there.

[Phraust]

The issue is that the attack rounds arent' equal, it cancels more hits than you think.

In 100 attack rounds:

30 x 1: 30
50 x 2: 100
20 x 3: 60
(190 total)

if you had 10% DA you'd get:

3 singles turned double
5 doubles that were already doubles
2 triples turned double:

27 x 1: 27
55 x 2: 110
18 x 3: 54
(191 total)

So you get 1 extra hit. (at 10% DA)

[miokomioko]

That post made me go from "...uhh?" to "ohhhhhh..."