Abyssea HNMs

[Airenn]

Heh, now you're slyly trying to attack me personally by saying I'm incompetent in my FFXI playing and leading abilities.

It's cute, really. Sad, though, that you're making personal attacks over a game to someone you don't even know remotely.

Not that it matters, but we did T3 with 11 people (and a mule TH4) and could have done it easily with 9-10. And not that it matters even more, but I am damn good at my jobs and fairly competent at leading low man things.

You could give math and advice without being a total prick, if you didn't know.

That is something that I was looking for, hard math on the way I was setting up the pts and tiers. I just realized that we ARE accumulating points too fast in a one night span, and that I need to adjust or work a different system into play for this to be as fair as possible.

[Thorny]

Not that it matters, but we did T3 with 11 people (and a mule TH4) and could have done it easily with 9-10. And not that it matters even more, but I am damn good at my jobs and fairly competent at leading low man things.

They're all doable with 6. If you really care so much about getting your gear asap, you'd be much better off getting a few friends and doing it without making a shell.. avoids the nasty problem of having to give other people things.

That is something that I was looking for, hard math on the way I was setting up the pts and tiers. I just realized that we ARE accumulating points too fast in a one night span, and that I need to adjust or work a different system into play for this to be as fair as possible.

Assuming you're serious, the most obvious and fair way to do any point system is open bidding. You give points based on time, not kills, as killspeed varies from mob to mob as does time tracking them. Anyone can bid any amount, it's fair by all aspects. Someone wants to spend all their points to ensure they get something? Awesome, they must have really wanted it and having more points than anyone else means they certainly earned it. Someone gets an item for 1 point? Who gives a shit, nobody else wanted it anyway. The only potential bottleneck in a bidding system is people getting into the impression that X person deserves an item more. If you start having people pass to each other or refuse to bid against each other the fair distribution goes away.

As per open economy, item's worth changes based on supply and demand. It'll always be fair, and nobody has any right to complain about anything that happens in it, removing any responsibility you have to deal with people thinking it's unfair.

[DantesTheBannedPLD]

OK -- I skimmed through the thread and I found some base strategies, and I have some questions on setups:

We have 12 members. We all have a diverse job pool, and I want to know which is better for each T3 and then T4.

Assume that everyone has PLD, BRD, and BLM leveled.

Krabkatoa:

PLD/NIN
PLD/NIN
WHM
BRD
RDM
SCH (He has MNK, BST, SCH, BLU, WAR, PLD)

BLM
BLM
BLM
COR
SAM/THF
SAM/THF

Alternate?:

MNK/NIN
MNK/NIN
WHM
BRD
RDM


BLM
BLM
BLM
BLM
COR

SAM/??? (Thf or nin?)
SAM/???


Blobdingbad:
Same as above (This is what we did last night, very easy fight, took about 20-30 minutes)

Alternate?:
Same as above with MNKs instead of PLDs

Verthandi - Tank PT
PLD
PLD
RDM
WHM
BRD

SMN party
BST
BST
SMN
SMN
COR
SMN


BLM
THF

Alternate?:

Verthandi
BST
COR
BST
BST
BST
BST
BST


SMN
RDM
BRD
SMN
SMN
SMN

RNG
RNG
WHM
THF


Lord Ruthven:

PLD
PLD
WHM
BRD
RDM
SCH

RNG
RNG
RNG
RNG
COR
WHM



Alternate?: All pet burn ?


Orcus:

I have no idea for this one.


Yilbegan:
PLD
PLD
WHM
BRD
SCH

BLM
BLM
BLM
RNG
RNG
COR

i'd use rngs/smns for Yilbegan instead of BLMs

[Airenn]

Aye, I was serious. And I didn't even consider an open bidding system because I've never been in an LS that had anything other than DKP (and items being a certain cost, I mean) or Job based tier system (way back in the day-ayyy)

That actually sounds like a good idea, and I'll bring it up to the group at large. Every person is actually a close friend of mine in the game, and we all work well together and can talk on PC -- We had SO much fun yesterday and we picked up the fights VERY quick. And I want to keep the group at about that size. TBH, I don't even know why I made a thread about it in Server Xfers because it's a good size group of very old/skilled players and you're right, I'd like to NOT add to the size really.

EDIT to poster above: Thanks

[Phraust]

Read through the thread, but couldn't find this answer. For the people that got rings/titles, did you fight the chain of mobs in separate zones? Like Worm in N.Gusta, Leech in Pashow, Blob in N.Gusta[S], Dragon in Pashow[S] for instance?

From my (albeit minor) observations it seems that drops suck more and more if you stay in one zone, but want to know if it's just random or if anyone else noticed something along the same lines.

[pendragoon]

Krab:
MNKx2, BRD, COR, RDM, WHM

Took in my static salvage group (MNK, MNK, WHM, RDM, BRD) plus another BRD, THF, and SMN for a Krab pop, failed horribly. I could see a few small mistakes being made by my group, but I don't see how it's possible. (Unless COR is the key job missing.)

None of the players were gimp. The MNKs: one full usu and other was well geared/partial usu. Both BRD sub BLM for 100% Troub/ES elegy, RDM slow II landed without issues. Venom shower went off 3 times in 5 minutes (most of the damage avoided by barwater), but chakra was virtually worthless.

Buffs: Minuetx2, Marchx2, Pro, Shell, Haste, Barwater

Fight: Krabs melee attacks were easily manageable with both slows. But MNKs were hitting for 10-30dmg max.

Back to back mega scissors, one on each of the MNKs and virtually no hate tools except their weak fists, ensured the quick and complete destruction of our mages.

Side note - Odin did 3.4k dmg lol.

[Darkmagi]

THF collaborating throughout the fight should make mages hate low enough for mnks to get hate back easily no?

[Kaeko]

I don't think I've heard of anyone killing Krabk with a melee DD tank setup (let alone a 6 man). Isn't melee damage resisted on Krabk? Some things look good on paper but don't quite pan out in game so it's good to always see a success before declaring something the most efficient method.

[homerun]

Hate reset on krab is really annoying. Usually prefer smn or blm dd's to limit tp feeding.

It really varies, some krabs we popped used that hate reset every 4th tp move, others maybe 1-2 times per fight.

[Chojja]

BLU/THF over smn for yilbegan. Can actually put hate back on the tank as well as not having to worry about timing your moves for during JA or casting since cannonball is 0.5 seconds. Just stay constantly lined up behind the PLD and over 20.0 yalms away.

[pendragoon]

I have a ton of practice soloing these VNM and I figured I could even solo/duo it with RDM, but I figured I'd take the quicker/less controversial route posted.

I was somewhat skeptical of MNK tank setup. (Figuring it was more of a "wrote down on paper" strategy, rather than an actual success. But Thorny seems so confident that I figured I'd give it a shot. Also, my salvage group easily takes on chariots...)

Collaborator wasn't an option:
1st PT
MNK, MNK, BRD, BRD, WHM, RDM (For 4 songs)
2nd PT
THF, SMN (Thf being 2boxed by a MNK for TH only)

[Kaeko]

I have a ton of practice soloing these VNM and I figured I could even solo/duo it with RDM, but I figured I'd take the quicker/less controversial route posted.

I was somewhat skeptical of MNK tank setup. (Figuring it was more of a "wrote down on paper" strategy, rather than an actual success. But Thorny seems so confident that I figured I'd give it a shot. Also, my salvage group easily takes on chariots...)

Collaborator wasn't an option:
1st PT
MNK, MNK, BRD, BRD, WHM, RDM (For 4 songs)
2nd PT
THF, SMN (Thf being 2boxed by a MNK for TH only)

If you have a group with lots of mages, the absolute fastest way to do Krab is East Ronf (S) or Jugner (S) using the pin idea. We did like an 8 minute Krab with just a party of spamming SCHs, BLMs, and RDM/SCHs + THF. Included pull time. If you're anti-pin on anything then don't know the fastest way but I think it's hard to top this simply because every single player is basically a DD outside the THF and there's absolutely no need for hate control.

[Darkmagi]

Should have swapped out a brd for thf to collaborate the whm and rdm every min Probably would have meant success for you.

[Streak]

I love monk tanks on anything, but yes, all their hate is from punching and if they can't hit for more than 10-30 damage it and avoid taking damage themselves they will take a very long time to accumulate good emnity... a few seconds of trouble and their entire emnity is gone.

Samurai does a bit better since their hate comes in chunks from their WS, but it's still iffy on things that don't take a lot of damage from melees.

Floating a on sea of emnity from JA and spells is much safer in these cases.

[Kaeko]

Thorny PM'd me regarding his MNK tanking attempt. Here's a repost since he can't right now. Might help people trying to dissect it.

Here's a log of my first attempt at it using MNK tanks. Entire setup was:

Thornyy(RDM/NIN)
Thornspet(RDM/NIN)
Solanis(BRD/WHM)
Ninian(BRD/BLM)
Makod(MNK)
Strifebringer(MNK)

Athras(BLM)
Celille(BLM)
Arcas(THF)

Have done it a few times since with the 6man setup and a THF in second party, but unfortunately only have access to my laptop at the moment and did those on desktop. Mega scissors is stunnable, not sure on the guy's venom shower report as in my experience it seems to have a minimum recast time to reuse.. have never seen it spammed. One BLM died after mega scissors back to back, and the THF died to aoe putting feint up. While hate got messy after scissors, I was using dual RDM/NINs with my enmity- sets disabled in case the MNKs died. Using RDM and WHM and curing in enmity- makes it much more managable. Total fight time was 9 minutes, but have done faster since then with mega scissors stunned and optimal setup.

http://www.rapidshare.com/files/3835...katoa.txt.html

During my first attempt, I went RDM/NIN x2 because I was wary of the MNKs ability to damage it and hold hate, and wanted to have a backup plan to avoid wasting pops if possible. For the same reason, I did not use an enmity- set on that pop, which made the fight significantly messier than it needed to be. It was a learning experience, but RDM/DRK and WHM/SCH utilizing enm- sets is certainly superior. Due to the amount of responsibility a RDM has in that fight, not all mega scissors will get stunned anyway, but the BLMs didn't stun a single mega scissors in that fight and despite me not using enmity- gear the MNKs did not have issue getting hate back over me in a timely manner(though they couldn't get it back from Celille).

[Airenn]

I don't think I've heard of anyone killing Krabk with a melee DD tank setup (let alone a 6 man). Isn't melee damage resisted on Krabk? Some things look good on paper but don't quite pan out in game so it's good to always see a success before declaring something the most efficient method.

I want to try it, but I am scared to try it, too.
We have two very well geared MNKs at our disposal though.

[Scrooge]

I don't think I've heard of anyone killing Krabk with a melee DD tank setup (let alone a 6 man). Isn't melee damage resisted on Krabk? Some things look good on paper but don't quite pan out in game so it's good to always see a success before declaring something the most efficient method.

Krab is easy with monk tanks. Just dispel/finale a lot. Chakra removes venom shower, and with few monks he's not even gonna use it too often. If you only have a very few melees on him, you can just outright eat the venom shower without even removing the poison, it's not that bad. With only two monks he's not gonna Mega Scissors all that often either. Just have your melee tanks stand apart from Krab (assume he was as fat as a wyrm, and imagine both melee tanks on either leg) and Mega Scissors won't be an issue. The mages will be able to cure out of range of Venom Shower from there.

[EDIT: you can easily fit three monk tanks on him while keeping the conal from Mega Scissors from hitting more than one at a time and still keep the mages out of range.]

We've had as many as four monks on him at once, and tp moves weren't at all an issue (neither was healing). Honestly, if you can kill a salvage boss with a standard Salvage pt, I really can't imagine that same group not being able to kill Krab, he's easier. And I'm pretty sure most people can kill a Salvage chariot these days.

If you have a group with lots of mages, the absolute fastest way to do Krab is East Ronf (S) or Jugner (S) using the pin idea. We did like an 8 minute Krab with just a party of spamming SCHs, BLMs, and RDM/SCHs + THF. Included pull time. If you're anti-pin on anything then don't know the fastest way but I think it's hard to top this simply because every single player is basically a DD outside the THF and there's absolutely no need for hate control.

Pinnings fine and all, but if you're melee tanking him, you can kill all four whereever you find him.

[Shadida]

I haven't tried it that way but I'll bet Monk's Roll and fully merited Penance go a long way toward preventing back-to-back TP moves. Stunning Mega Scissors is just gravy.

[Uzor]

Krabkatoa:

PLD/NIN
PLD/NIN
WHM
BRD
RDM
SCH (He has MNK, BST, SCH, BLU, WAR, PLD)

BLM
BLM
BLM
COR
SAM/THF
SAM/THF

Alternate?:

MNK/NIN
MNK/NIN
WHM
BRD
RDM


BLM
BLM
BLM
BLM
COR

SAM/??? (Thf or nin?)
SAM/???


Blobdingbad:
Same as above (This is what we did last night, very easy fight, took about 20-30 minutes)

Alternate?:
Same as above with MNKs instead of PLDs

Verthandi - Tank PT
PLD
PLD
RDM
WHM
BRD

SMN party
BST
BST
SMN
SMN
COR
SMN


BLM
THF

Alternate?:

Verthandi
BST
COR
BST
BST
BST
BST
BST


SMN
RDM
BRD
SMN
SMN
SMN

RNG
RNG
WHM
THF


Lord Ruthven:

PLD
PLD
WHM
BRD
RDM
SCH

RNG
RNG
RNG
RNG
COR
WHM



Alternate?: All pet burn ?


Orcus:

I have no idea for this one.


Yilbegan:
PLD
PLD
WHM
BRD
SCH

BLM
BLM
BLM
RNG
RNG
COR

While you have 12 people, if everyone has RDM, PLD and BRD lvled as you say, I think it would be better for you to split the groups up. All of the NM's are doable with 6 people safely.

For Yilbegan, you only need a set up like;
PLD
RDM
WHM
BRD
RNG
RNG

to kill it in under an hour. All of the NM's can be done with a similar strategy. Although for Krabkatoa you might want to have a second tank in case stun fails and mega scissors go off. Also, I would highly recommend PLD/RDM over PLD/NIN for Yilbegan. Shadows are rather useless as he spam Dancing Tail. PLD/RDM takes double-digit damage from Dancing Tail in a DEF/PDT gear. Alternatively, PLD/BLU works great too.

Also, you might want to replace one of the RNG's with a BLU, as SATA Cannon Ball (you'll tank from behind anyway) absolutely rapes him, and makes it impossible for the others to steal hate, which means he'll use zero chaos blasts and doom moves, which are pretty much the only things that could possibly fuck you over if your mages are slow on erase/sacrifice/cursna.

[Kaeko]

You can dodge tail fairly reliably by standing on one of the back feet, then quickly shifting to the side when you see it charge (kind of like Ixion). I don't know if that changes what sub is best, but you don't have to eat 100% of the tails.