Abyssea HNMs

[Red Demon Taoist]

If you don't understand why a game should have challenge, I don't know what to tell you. Some people don't care about gameplay, simply being the best. If you're one of those people, fuck yea pinning. Go get all your rings, have fun taking 2 steps back and forth for hours on end, and enjoy that extra 1 stat. I'm sure it'll make a noticable difference in your gameplay.

I'm wondering what your response would be to someone making this similar argument about botting or pos hacking or AP radar.

(Probably something along the lines of "fucking idiot" this "you're beneath me" that.)

Because I could easily say, you use AP radar to find the VNMs (as I'm assuming you do), you don't care about the sanctity or challenge of the gameplay. You just want easy mode so you can get better stuff than the next guy faster.

See the double standard?

Solo pinning's not ok because it takes away from the challenge of the game? mmkay. Next time you fire up your fish bot, think about how hard it is to cap fishing skill legit. Or is that one of those things that's unreasonably hard so it's ok to cut corners?

On another note, go back up to the relic thread. Read Kaeko's posts. See how he talks to people? That is how it's done. That's how you act like an authoritative adult deserving of respect.

[Tsuko_Asura]

Not that I'm taking either side(mostly because I don't care), but you seem to be having a lot of trouble following an alleged child's logic.

Pinning makes one's ability to kill otherwise difficult targets moot. Sure, APRadar is an illegitimate means to finding a target, but if you were otherwise incapable of killing it anyway, it really doesn't make a difference, does it?

[Shaskoru]

Pinning is unskillful but ja0wait is otay.

Also, bringing up challenge for ffxi is hilarious. SE has had almost a decade to create challenging and fun content. If you're talking about current content, then please direct your attention to pathing, utsusemi, and RNG.

[Kegsay]

It's a slippery slope, since other solos which are deemed acceptable (Ix'DRG, Ix'DRK, Ix'MNK come to mind) use methods which aren't 'in the spirit of the game' (dot+zone/confusing ai/etc).

Unless SE patches it in the following update, I would argue that pinning is an acceptable tactic, because whilst yes it requires little skill, so does Bio=>Zone, but that hasn't been fixed in any way, and both allow you to kill the monster (albeit not VNMs since they disappear). I think the person who got jailed got unlucky because bystanders reported him to a GM.

As a safe bet, any solo which doesn't involve 'exploiting' things (be it zonelines or crap AI) should be acceptable, however that does tend to limit the effectiveness of some solos.

[Soho]

/ontopic

LS did a bunch of Krabs tonight, noticed something interesting:

If it was Daytime (6-18) with no weather (Clear or Sunshine - watch for Clouds and Fog, we didn't test a pop with either active) and both T2 in the zone were dead, Krabkatoa popped with a shadow.

Due to repop timers and shit conversion rate I can't say for certain all these were required, but we're 100% on shadow krabs with them all. I know that last condition seems a little off compared to the other two (normal requirements for an actual shadow) but the 4th krab we popped did not have a shadow, and at least 1 T2 mob was still up in the zone.

We were also keeping track of weather during pops for a bit, thinking it might have had something to do with Shadows. We ended up seeing pops both ways, with and without weather, so we gave up on that theory for now.

[ronin sparthos]

I don't see how pinning is any different than a COR QD kiting a mob around an object or zone. In both scenarios the monster cant hit you due to pathing/movement speed issues.

The zoning/DoT strat of killing a mob would also not be 'legit' because you're not giving the monster the ability to hit you.

Basically what is being said is that any kite strat is not legit because you dont give the mob the ability to fight back. While i am all for challenge, most of the T2 VNM are pretty cheap moreso than difficult with constant hate resetting ability and the need to fight many in order to access the 3rd tier.

Everyone knew it'd be patched eventually anyway. If we want to collectively bitch about something, how about the instant depop if you wipe/"wander too far"? You'd think SE would realize by now that instant depops are fucking retarded.

There is no reason the mob shouldn't just reset and depop after the standard. The likelyhood of someone stealing your pop is low and if it happens... well.... you wiped.

[Bikpik]

Using terrain to your advantage has always been considered good military tactics for centuries, so why is it any different in a game where you have to kill something?

People have been using the terrain, pathing AI, and zoning for solos as long as the game has been around. Some examples of abusing game mechanics to your advantage:

1. Kiting mobs until they're out of MP
2. Kiting, with +movement, Sea/Sky trigger nms around circles.
3. Dragging mobs to cliffs so mages can avoid AOE
4. Running out of range of TP moves
5. Zone DoTing mobs
6. Using Poison to prevent mobs from using TP moves

And all of these are "acceptable" solo techniques, but pinning is not? Pretty double standardy if you ask me.

[BerenTebogo]

Using terrain to your advantage has always been considered good military tactics for centuries, so why is it any different in a game where you have to kill something?

People have been using the terrain, pathing AI, and zoning for solos as long as the game has been around. Some examples of abusing game mechanics to your advantage:

1. Kiting mobs until they're out of MP
2. Kiting, with +movement, Sea/Sky trigger nms around circles.
3. Dragging mobs to cliffs so mages can avoid AOE
4. Running out of range of TP moves
5. Zone DoTing mobs
6. Using Poison to prevent mobs from using TP moves

And all of these are "acceptable" solo techniques, but pinning is not? Pretty double standardy if you ask me.

You're asserting, by implication, that SE is a rational entity that considers things such as "double standards" when making their assertions of what we can and cannot do.

They're fucking idiots. Period. They play a different game than we do. The more you try to make sense of their decisions the more you'll end up getting dizzy and nauseous. All we can do is look at past decisions that SE has handed down and infer future action from that.

Wall-of-Justice and Cerberus drawing in are two very clear examples. The lack of an enormous amount of examples is not due specifically to SE's narrow standards but moreso that they really, really, really, know nothing about their own game.

If people started a widespread campaign of GMing every person who used the bush near prudence to avoid getting attacked, or the pinning of the quadav in the Grauberg pixie fight, or the use of fences to never get hit by Ixion solo, etc, then there'd be a lot more patches.

The reason that this reaction from SE was easily predictable is because of the absolutely insane repop timer they decided to put on T2 and T3 mobs coupled with the inevitable butthurt casuals complaining. JoP or Grauberg are never issues for concern because there is no bottleneck and it's hardly close to being as well-publicized. When you can have 1 person monopolizing entire zones for days straight (I did it, I was the only person able to pop Krab in Eron S for a little over 24 hours. Thoroughly cockblocking about 4 JP LSes in my efforts.) in an event system that is open to any level or quality of player at any time then of course you're going to have whiners.

Is it our fault that SE designed the system so poorly that not only are we able to take advantage of it but should feel compelled to do so? (I'm of the opinion that if something is easily farmable and soloable by you then it is your responsibility to make it happen and rude to force a LS to do it. See: Jailer of Fortitude) The answer is a resounding no. However history dictates that SE will ban first, second, and third...then they'll ban some more, before ever admitting fault. You'll notice that you're still able to dupe items in and outside of salvage.

Sure it's annoying seeing gimps with good gear, but honestly, the VNM system is retarded anyways. I'd rather exploit a failing system and make it work to my advantage instead of sitting politely, hands-folded-in-lap, waiting for SE to amend their failures and provide a more user-friendly, world-expansive event. Hell, there's a reason we do solo other mobs that aren't VNMs. We're tired of waiting for systems to be scaled to be more large-group friendly. A 5% droprate on a mob that is popped by an item that is another 5% droprate that is R/E is not a good time investment for a shell with 30 people. No matter how good it is.

[pendragoon]

In SE's vision of how to play the game, every single one of us is doing it incorrectly. BLM, WHM, and RDM should be meleeing everything.

I personally justify using the games mechanics (including pathing) to my advantage, because that's how the game was designed. Just like the fact that most mobs can cast up to 30 distance, run while casting, can have retarded spell interrupt rates, and have spells that players of the same or higher levels and the same jobs do not have access to, being able to 2hr multiple times.

As far as the wall-of-justice, I was under the impression that it was against the rules simply because AV had absolutely no way of reaching the character. There was no danger to the player, therefore it was cheating. I've hit lag spikes, or accidentally hit /heal, or assumed a spell was not being nuked on me, or got caught on objects, and have died to these tier 2. Out of probably 150-200 solos, deaths might not be common, but they've happened. (I don't complain to SE when my pathing gets ruined by running into a small ridge of "snow" in Xarcabard and die because of it.)

[Thorny]

Using terrain to your advantage has always been considered good military tactics for centuries, so why is it any different in a game where you have to kill something?

People have been using the terrain, pathing AI, and zoning for solos as long as the game has been around. Some examples of abusing game mechanics to your advantage:

1. Kiting mobs until they're out of MP
2. Kiting, with +movement, Sea/Sky trigger nms around circles.
3. Dragging mobs to cliffs so mages can avoid AOE
4. Running out of range of TP moves
5. Zone DoTing mobs
6. Using Poison to prevent mobs from using TP moves

And all of these are "acceptable" solo techniques, but pinning is not? Pretty double standardy if you ask me.

Fortunately, there's a clear line. SE has the option of giving monsters draw-in or insane movement speed to disallow kiting. Do you really think they gave every VNM 37-75% movement for no reason at all?

1. Fine. Waste of time anyway.
2. Fine, if mob doesn't have movement they clearly don't care if it's kited.
3. Bit cheesy since practically any aoe can be avoided with proper positioning, but inconvenience makes up for minor benefits. Tanks still get hit.
4. They have the option of making TP moves faster, they're well aware people do this. Throat stab is a perfect example.
5. This runs a high risk of getting your monster stolen. It's your tradeoff for doing this. Again, they disallowed it on VNM.
6. They have the option of adding regain. If something doesn't have it, you can use poison or blood pacts or cere dagger to your heart's content.

These are all things SE is aware of and compensates for. Do you honestly think they intended for VNM to be handled via pinning? There are enough spots that everything except yilbegan can be duoed with it.. requiring no game knowledge, gear, or 'skill'. It'll be patched, and rightfully so.

[Yimoa]

SE knows their game,look at the poor implamentations.
VNM is just another bullet on their test list.
How do you handle a horse with a broken leg?
Break another one.

[Bikpik]

These are all things SE is aware of and compensates for. Do you honestly think they intended for VNM to be handled via pinning? There are enough spots that everything except yilbegan can be duoed with it.. requiring no game knowledge, gear, or 'skill'. It'll be patched, and rightfully so.

No I don't think SE intended that VNMs be handled that way, but I also don't think they intended for a lot of the possible solo to be handled that way either, which was the point I was trying to make. Why is kiting around a circle more accepted than pinning(not just VNMs), when they're both technically the same thing?

[Tsuko_Asura]

Pinning is unskillful but ja0wait is otay.

Also, bringing up challenge for ffxi is hilarious. SE has had almost a decade to create challenging and fun content. If you're talking about current content, then please direct your attention to pathing, utsusemi, and RNG.

How are you people arriving at these completely illogical comparisons?

Removing the delay when activating a JA is a matter of convenience, it in no way determines whether or not you're able to complete a task. Conversely, pinning takes something that's absolutely impossible otherwise, and makes it a braindead task for any idiot to complete.

Agree with Thorny or disagree with Thorny, but these analogies make zero sense. If you're incapable of even comprehending his position, I don't see how you're entitled to participating in the discussion.

[Tsuko_Asura]

No I don't think SE intended that VNMs be handled that way, but I also don't think they intended for a lot of the possible solo to be handled that way either, which was the point I was trying to make. Why is kiting around a circle more accepted than pinning(not just VNMs), when they're both technically the same thing?

Because there are no measures implemented to keep people from running in circles, where as Square quite clearly didn't want people to simply stay out of range of VNM?

Again, I don't care, but this shit's clear as day.

[BerenTebogo]

No I don't think SE intended that VNMs be handled that way, but I also don't think they intended for a lot of the possible solo to be handled that way either, which was the point I was trying to make. Why is kiting around a circle more accepted than pinning(not just VNMs), when they're both technically the same thing?

I challenge, openly, half of the casual RDMs I've seen trio Krabkatoa to kill Jailer of Faith with 6 RDM/NINs.

There's something about pinning that makes it ridiculously easier than kiting. I spent a lot of time a month or so ago duoing JoFa, a mob that runs at perma-shoggof (or maybe faster?) speed and I know many others have duo'd it easily as well. It's easy to an extent (if you are skilled or intelligent) but it is 1,000,000,000% harder than duoing Krabkatoa. It also requires PDT, MDT, movement speed, intelligent nuking gear, and experience on the job. Duoing Krabkatoa requires you to have Bio 2.

To an extent, running around in circles while actually killing a mob is much more challenging than making the mob run around in circles while you stand still. If you're kiting a mob that moves at normal to +12% movement speed then you need to make choices about when and how you will damage the mob without taking damage. These choices, and your efficiency in making them, determine your overall success. Soloing mobs that run at flee speed without pinning is much harder (Shoggof is a good example, easy mob but good luck throwing casuals without MDT sets as RDM/NIN at it.) and therefor draws a much more exclusive group of players to it.

tl;dr? Nothing is hard in FFXI if you have a brain. Making shit super easy for people without brains is aggravating.

[Bikpik]

Because there are no measures implemented to keep people from running in circles, where as Square quite clearly didn't want people to simply stay out of range of VNM?

Again, I don't care, but this shit's clear as day.

Ok so it's ok if i use a shitload of powder boots on Cor/nin and QD kite the VNMs in a circle instead, as long as I don't pin it anywhere?

edit: I do agree that pinning is an easy button, but why not use it while we can.

[Tsuko_Asura]

Ok so it's ok if i use a shitload of powder boots on Cor/nin and QD kite the VNMs in a circle instead, as long as I don't pin it anywhere?

edit: I do agree that pinning is an easy button, but why not use it while we can.

Sure, because that's about as practical as trying to kill something difficult with a satchel full of Reraise Gorgets and Bio. It introduces the danger of being unsuccessful or having your target stolen in exchange for the chance to win. Pinning does neither of these things.

[BerenTebogo]

Ok so it's ok if i use a shitload of powder boots on Cor/nin and QD kite the VNMs in a circle instead, as long as I don't pin it anywhere?

edit: I do agree that pinning is an easy button, but why not use it while we can.

I think using pinning while it's available is good. Putting more effort than is necessary into FFXI, no matter what the reason, is silly at this point.

I just don't wanna see the BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAW when people get banned or jailed over it. We've now officially been warned that GMs are looking out for this. Now we have a decision to make and we have to accept the possible repercussions of whatever we decide.

And thinking that it was never going to be patched, if anyone was, is still silly.

[Thorny]

Ok so it's ok if i use a shitload of powder boots on Cor/nin and QD kite the VNMs in a circle instead, as long as I don't pin it anywhere?

edit: I do agree that pinning is an easy button, but why not use it while we can.

Powder boots usage time will get you killed. I'll personally give you a medal if you solo feuerenke using 20 pairs of powder boots over and over.

It's costly, risky, and makes you look silly. If you can pull it off, more power to you. It's in no way like pinning, it's more comparable to filling your satchel with hi-elixirs to have infinite resources on a fight that won't one shot you.

[Bikpik]

I think using pinning while it's available is good. Putting more effort than is necessary into FFXI, no matter what the reason, is silly at this point.

I just don't wanna see the BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAW when people get banned or jailed over it. We've now officially been warned that GMs are looking out for this. Now we have a decision to make and we have to accept the possible repercussions of whatever we decide.

And thinking that it was never going to be patched, if anyone was, is still silly.

I also agree that it'll be patched (and should be) what I'm arguing about is the difference in kiting and pinning. Some kiting fights are extremely easy, ufo's on Sch, for example, I could probably do that on /blm and be in no danger at all. Pinning Urd, another example, is a lot harder imo, as it can still get TP moves off on you, and in that case, you're screwed. Also, I'd bet not every Rdm/nin can solo Krab either(but the pinning does make it easier).

But like Sath said, most everything in this game is easy now, if you have a brain.