Abyssea HNMs

[ZhiGaruda]

Going by Asmoranomar's post, I'm wondering. When people started getting banned for the Wall of Justice exploit, was there immediately a fix/official notice made that this was against the rules, or was it purely on a case-by-case (like this situation) basis?

[Asmoranomar]

Going by Asmoranomar's post, I'm wondering. When people started getting banned for the Wall of Justice exploit, was there immediately a fix/official notice made that this was against the rules, or was it purely on a case-by-case (like this situation) basis?

If your asking if there was ever an official notice on the official FFXI website, the official POL, or even officially in game stating that there was an official bug found and people would be officially banned if they exploited it? Officially - no. (But they did when the gambling NPC bug was found)

Where there pics of GM's and third party reports - Yes.

Edit: By in-game I mean the motd or some global message - not GMs.

[ZhiGaruda]

Well then, at this point, it's all moot. If you don't believe the reports from this person, then you shouldn't believe there was ever banning being done for the Wall of Justice exploit. And don't even say screenshots - as I've seen quite a few shoops in my time.

[Asmoranomar]

The point was not that I believe or don't believe him. Infact it sounds exactly like what would happen - a single GM making a claim based on their own understanding of the rule, not realizing it could be applied to a significant number of things in-game.

My point was that SE does not talk to us. Instead we are here speculating what constitues an 'exploit' from a 'tactic'....a 'bug' from a 'feature'....and if the next GM is going to read the same rule the same way as this previous one did. Some people are encouraging people to continue these actions, despite the fact that SE has been known to retroactively punish people. Others, like myself, want to know if we will be expecting bans within the next few weeks even though we stopped.

[Kaeko]

Regarding the Wall of Justice, a Garuda LS was mass-jailed over it when a rival LS thought it would be funny to GM them. After that, a couple LSs used wall but asked the GM if it was OK first. A couple of the GMs said it was no problem and I believe one account the GM even watched it. There was never an official POL message about it outside "AV now has drawn in". I would also point out that the WoJ doesn't magically make you immune to AV. He can still cast on you over the wall. No LS ever killed with the WoJ without accidentally locking him first (which then made him melee only).

Regarding if the guy actually got sent to jail over VNMs, it happened on Odin where I am. The guy that told me is very reliable and the guy that got banned does solo VNMs a whole lot. He was also absent yesterday. It did happen.

Remember that GMs attempt to enforce SE rules, but they have to use their own judgment when interpreting rules, which varies person to person on gray areas like this. Say what you will about pinning, but it is clearly a "gray area" (you can tell just by reading the last 2 pages where people vary on opinion). You get the wrong GM you can get jailed for a lot of things. Just like the WoJ. If you are going to continue using this strategy, just do it when others aren't watching. GMs do not randomly spy on you - someone has to call one to watch you.

**

I've really tried to promote pinning (even named it 3 years ago - I regret the name b/c it makes no sense outside of that temperance hold), but I don't want to see anyone get jailed over it. It likely will get remedied in some fashion and I'm personally all for that. There is a fine line between efficient and 'too efficient' and I think this falls into the latter.

People say this game is "too easy", and it really is when people manufacture and package strategies for you to read on BG. It might be pretty challenging if you never read online forums or resources. The challenges for me come from being given a system and trying to find flaws in it. Say what you will about pinning, but I think it's hilarious that they were clearly meant to be anti-kite solo (no bind, no gravity, can depop, runs ridiculously fast), and now everyone kite solos it.

Morally, couldn't care less. Happy to see people get rings.

[Asmoranomar]

Kaeko - I trust your friend/acquaintance was telling the truth, I didn't mean to infer that I didn't believe him. He was just an example I was using as we are all too familiar with the "omg I got banned but didn't do anything" routine.

[Kaeko]

Kaeko - I trust your friend/acquaintance was telling the truth, I didn't mean to infer that I didn't believe him. He was just an example I was using as we are all too familiar with the "omg I got banned but didn't do anything" routine.

yea I totally get you :D

[BerenTebogo]

Only we haven't. It's just one guy posting saying that it happened, with no SS proof. While I don't deny his story, SE themselves hasn't come out and said anything official at all about it. It's just one GM and we don't know the entire story of what took place.

Our group did it one night a while back on some T2 on the epic fence. We also play in the trees in xarc and snow in beau often. It wasn't any big secret and we, or at least myself, knew the information was on BG. The problem is how is the player base supposed to know what is and is not allowed? Do we call a GM every time we step out of our MH? Do we wait until someone is banned and posted on a (non-premier) site? Do we wait until SE finally releases ban hammer totals?

It is a grey area - I honestly didn't think for a second that it was considered cheating while we were doing it (we still had at least 6-7 people or more there anyways) and it was actually entertaining and fun. We still had people die, but it was more for the lulz at the DD trying to fight it normal.

But if SE comes out and slaps everyone with a ban hammer without so much a word, then it's going to cause a bunch of people to question even the simplest of tactics. (for example: is BP and QD spam for 0TP gain a 'bug' or a 'feature'?)

At the very least its an eye opener. I'm of the opinion that as long as it's in the game it should be allowed (their mistake, not ours). But its just an opinion, and I've sure heard my share of garbage before too - so I'm sure some people are against it. But I think we can all agree that its pretty bogus to ban legit players before given a chance to correct themselves in a grey area. Duping can still take place, but you don't see people still doing that anymore do you? All we want is some simple direction.

One jailing is enough of a warning to anyone with a brain. You haven't been playing this game longer than 6 months if you think, "because SE hasn't officially said anything about it doesn't mean they won't ban you over it."

Again, anyone with common sense who has been playing FFXI for a while has known, since the beginning, that the pinning strategy, if abused, would be cracked down upon. If you are honestly saying you never considered that to be an option, well, you get a very special award.

My point still stands firm. As more and more people learn the strategy of pinning (word of mouth, things eventually making it to FFXIAH forums and alla, etc) and the bottle-knecking becomes more and more severe we will see a marked increase in the number of people GM'd and infracted upon for using the technique. Kaeko is 100% right that it is very dependent on the GM who answers your call, but even humoring the possibility that you face no risk is asinine.

Moreover, now that this example HAS been posted on BG I fully expect rival linkshell members who happen upon someone soloing via pinning to GM them for shits and giggles. FFXI, somehow, is still inhabited by nothing but 14 year olds, it's definitely going to happen.

Now do I care if you do it? Fuck no. Will I do it? Fuck yes. But I'm also the person who discovered you could be doomvoided while another LS has claim, kited a CFH KB for ~45 minutes letting it meteor all over 5 linkshells, kited a purple Nidhogg causing 7 flails, etc. You won't find any qualms on my end between "what I want to do" and "what I'm going to do". But if the salvage incident taught us anything it's that SE is fucking terrible at customer service and you really, really, really do not want to be on the wrong end of one of their snap judgments.

But hey, denial is cool too.

[Darkmagi]

Yes and yes. I'd be willing to bet my life savings that the original intent of SE was to make both of these mobs that difficult. (Not in the same way, but...) I believe SE intends for you to get hit with every type of TP move that each monster can use. Most of the time something difficult comes along, the playerbase finds a way around it. Some of them are considered normal gameplay others are considered exploits.

Kirin being difficult in itself, the mob was the highest level, hardest mob in the game at that point. I seriously doubt their intent was to make it as simple as running in a circle and using blm or rng or smn.

Tonberry, added difficulty in hate management. (Enmity items being produced for the first time in RoZ, Sahagin having hate reset moves.)

I'll agree that the pinning is more of an exploit to game mechanics than kiting, but the results are virtually the same: Moving your character out of range so that the mob cannot touch you. One you move in a circle or a line, the other you move in a side to side motion.

Are you seriously saying outrunning throat stab is an exploit? It's massive delay and short range is obviously a chance to run away. The kirin argument is retarded too. No group could have handled a straight tank kirin way back when without like 30+ people. Having him spam tp moves and spells seems like a pretty good indicator that it was intended to have an option to be kited. Also I suppose you think stun is an exploit if you think every tp move should hit a player too right?

[Khajit]

Are you seriously saying outrunning throat stab is an exploit? It's massive delay and short range is obviously a chance to run away. The kirin argument is retarded too. No group could have handled a straight tank kirin way back when without like 30+ people. Having him spam tp moves and spells seems like a pretty good indicator that it was intended to have an option to be kited. Also I suppose you think stun is an exploit if you think every tp move should hit a player too right?

I want you to stop and think about what you just said about the number of people SE wanted you to fight a mob with when SE has had the rather notorious examples of pre nerf AV and PW created.

[Darkmagi]

Either way I still think SE either intended kiting to be used in this game in some ways or they are just massively retarded.

[Asmoranomar]

Again, anyone with common sense who has been playing FFXI for a while has known, since the beginning, that the pinning strategy, if abused, would be cracked down upon. If you are honestly saying you never considered that to be an option, well, you get a very special award.

That's my point though, before the Wall of Justice incident, people considered it a legitimate tactic until GM's got involved - a lot of people thought it was the key to killing AV. Even now, its still not clear if it was a GM's interpretation of the rules or if it was 'genuine' cheating. We still have no official answer.

If the only answer we are going to get is "It depends on what the GM decides" then that leaves so much open for interpretation because the rule is so vague. Almost every rule SE has falls apart then - Which would mean I'm at risk just for playing the game. So what makes the pinning method more or less severe then?

Edit: I'm not saying pinning should be allowed, but that the silence we get from SE doesn't clarify whether lots of things should be allowed or not (obviously one GM doesn't like it, but what does he think of other similar tactics?). Do we just wait until someone gets banned over it before the community decides if its acceptable or not? Does this example entice more people to start calling GM's for mobs that can be solo'ed? Or do we look stupid and bring a party of people to things just over concerns that we might get banned if we try to solo it? And then there's the concerns of retroactive punishment IF SE even comes out and clarifies the issue.

[vagus]

And then there's the concerns of retroactive punishment IF SE even comes out and clarifies the issue.

HA.

[pendragoon]

I think what they intended and what's possible are 2 different things.

A tonberry is using throat stab, I run away. Why would SE have put it there if they didn't intend on me using it.

I see a fence in E.Ron [S], it's there. Why would SE have put it there if they didn't intend on me using it.

Throat stab - The fact that it has a long charge up before it goes off doesn't necessarily mean that they designed it specifically so you can run away. Maybe they intended for it to be stunned? Maybe they gave it a charge time so that mages/tanks would have a reaction time capable of keeping the fight/hate under control.

Kirin was created when FFXI was IMO pretty stocked with players. Making a mob that calls for a long/challenging 36-64 character battle doesn't sound far fetched if you ask me (look at the original AV/PW, as mentioned Khajit).

With all the maybes, I can't read SE's intentions for anything more than I see at face value. SE has made challenges from start to present. But it's not really stupid to think that they're attempting to get as much challenge as possible out of every single mob/boss in the game. (Not saying they make AV versions of tonberry, but I'm sure they don't want you to walk up to it and 1 shot it as a level 10 war.)

How the mob is treated by the playerbase after its release hardly means it was originally intended to be that way. Besides the WHM and BLM meleeing example I gave previously...

Ninja wasn't intended to tank, which was stated by the developers. Were NINs exploiting the game by being able to hold hate and evading too much?

[Shinsei]

This would insanely stupid but right up SEs alley. What is the point of having the mobs openly roam if you cant pick where you want to fight it? If they didn't want you to pick where to fight they would have just made each mob a ??? that force loads the VNM in X spot whenever you want.

You actually have to pull them to the pin spot, they do not particularly pop nor roam at that location. Either way, my original point was the situation was handled poorly. Those VNMs are not the only thing in the game "pin" tactics were used on, some long before VNMs were even released. How are other things deemed ok to do it on but then others aren't? For example, I've seen that Quadav NM fight in Grauberg[S] been pinned the hell out and back by quite a few people.

Not even debating whether pinning is right or wrong, I just thought the situation could have been dealt with differently.

[Tsuko_Asura]

I'm honestly dumbfounded by the fact that people are truly trying to compare pinning to kiting.

How many times has Square had a public issue with kiting something in a legitimate way? Oh, that's right, none.

How many times has Square made it blatantly obvious that they do not approve of us taking advantage of poor pathing? Oh, that's right, probably a few times per week.

[Asmoranomar]

I'm honestly dumbfounded by the fact that people are truly trying to compare pinning to kiting.

So what your saying is, because he walked toward a fence and back, affecting the mob's AI, while he himself moves very little is cheating.

Yet if you take the same fence, and kite around it, all while hitting the same parts of the fence that confuses the mob's AI, then its ok?

Or do you mean just strapping on some movement speed items, gravity and running far out ahead?

I rarely see a kited kill that doesn't take some sort of flaw in mob's AI when pathing around stuff.

[ZhiGaruda]

One is blatant abuse of terrain, giving the mob absolutely no chance of ever catching you.

The other is not.

Why is this a hard concept?

[Tsuko_Asura]

Ignore the clear logistics of my point of view if you desire, but the only relevant point of view has been made clear many, many times in the past, and that relevant point of view won't hesitate to ban you.

[Asmoranomar]

Because they both abuse the terrain and both methods can be used to give the mob no chance of ever catching you? Keep in mind we are under the scenario of the 'stand at fence' or 'kite around fence' option.

Or maybe I should re-word it a different way: If, by simply running around the fence and kiting, do you think it would have prevented the caution/ban?