Paragon downs Heroic LK 25

[[Cookies]]

My mains are a Holy/Disc Priest and a Resto Druid. My alts are a Resto Shaman and a Holy Paladin. I've healed the Lich King with every one of them.

Rejuvenation is moot, hi2u Renew & PoM. 10m is irrelevant, one PoH (precasted), a CoH & SoLFL and Infest is healed. Your Wild Growth ain't healing for shit.

Talking about ignorance (oh and talking out of my ass lol?), Paragon themselves have stated that they didn't use a Restoration Druid because a) they had one shaman and needed lust/totems and b) they're not very strong at healing Infest and overall aren't as good as Priests and Paladins for the encounter. I'm just repeating not only what they've said but also from the experiences i've had healing LK10.

Am I ignorant if I say that Holy Priests aren't as strong as Restoration Druids when healing Twin Valkyr or BQL?

[Correction]

Paragon themselves have stated that they didn't use a Restoration Druid because...

A WF guild's reason for choosing raid comp is never really what they say. Whether or not they used runescrolls, the real reason a top10 guild benches a certain class combo is because they're looking for the key to the world first using their existing roster, not because it's necessarily the mathematically best way to do the encounter.

Think of it in terms of older content. Wanted WF on M'uru? Stack 5 shaman, chain casting the haste lets you paper over gaps in gear/skill from individuals. Want pre-nerf WF on Yogg0? Stack Affliction Warlocks, channel-turning lets them do 100% of the damage before too many immortal guardians come up and start killing people. WF ToGC25? Stack paladins with holy wrath glyphed. And so on.

The reason Paragon didn't bring a resto druid is identical to the reason they didn't bring any mages.

[Falaras]

Rawr is not indicative of target switching. Fire has a harder time in target switching fight. Just because theorycraft puts it ahead, it gets out played by RNG too often.

So arcane is 5% ahead because you made it 5% ahead with your own math? Its not like arcane is any good at target switching either, no mage spec is.

[Eaglestrike]

So arcane is 5% ahead because you made it 5% ahead with your own math? Its not like arcane is any good at target switching either, no mage spec is.

As long as there's no movement involved doesn't arcane suffer 0 from target switching? If all you're doing is tab-arcane blast I don't see how the mage loses anything switching targets...

[aurik]

My mains are a Holy/Disc Priest and a Resto Druid. My alts are a Resto Shaman and a Holy Paladin. I've healed the Lich King with every one of them.

Rejuvenation is moot, hi2u Renew & PoM. 10m is irrelevant, one PoH (precasted), a CoH & SoLFL and Infest is healed. Your Wild Growth ain't healing for shit.

Talking about ignorance (oh and talking out of my ass lol?), Paragon themselves have stated that they didn't use a Restoration Druid because a) they had one shaman and needed lust/totems and b) they're not very strong at healing Infest and overall aren't as good as Priests and Paladins for the encounter. I'm just repeating not only what they've said but also from the experiences i've had healing LK10.

Am I ignorant if I say that Holy Priests aren't as strong as Restoration Druids when healing Twin Valkyr or BQL?

You're talking out of your ass when you start talking about the drawbacks of rdruids in 25h, or hell any 25 man since from what I can tell you only do 10m. Have you even killed LK in 10 yet? Judging from your recent accomplishments posts you're not exactly in a very progressive guild.

But anyway, you're ignorant because you're saying that Apples > Oranges, without recognizing that different classes approach problems from different angles, and there are merits and drawbacks of each.

Just to give this concrete example for the 3rd time (so you can ignore it again): imagine you are valk'd and an infest wave goes out. If you are a druid, you have hots ticking on a significant portion of the raid, cancelling out most of the infests before they really get started. If you are a holy priest or resto shaman, you pray that the dps kills the valk quickly, and that LK won't drop a defile on a melee costing another few precious seconds where you are incapacitated.

That's a pretty significant drawback.

[[Cookies]]

You're talking out of your ass when you start talking about the drawbacks of rdruids in 25h, or hell any 25 man since from what I can tell you only do 10m. Have you even killed LK in 10 yet? Judging from your recent accomplishments posts you're not exactly in a very progressive guild.

But anyway, you're ignorant because you're saying that Apples > Oranges, without recognizing that different classes approach problems from different angles, and there are merits and drawbacks of each.

Just to give this concrete example for the 3rd time (so you can ignore it again): imagine you are valk'd and an infest wave goes out. If you are a druid, you have hots ticking on a significant portion of the raid, cancelling out most of the infests before they really get started. If you are a holy priest or resto shaman, you pray that the dps kills the valk quickly, and that LK won't drop a defile on a melee costing another few precious seconds where you are incapacitated.

That's a pretty significant drawback.

I never said i'd even participated in any 25m content. As i've already said my experience is from 10m raiding. Again, i'm just quoting what Paragon themselves have said about Lich King 25mH. After having played all 4 healing classes for the Lich King encounter, I can say without a doubt that Restoration Druids aren't as strong as other healers. My guild is, I think, top 10 in the world for strict 10 man progression. I don't bother posting in the accomplishment thread as I don't see the point. I play this game for fun, not to boast about what pixels I have or haven't killed.

Your argument that a Restoration Druid can prehot to avoid complications with valkyr is null and void as a Holy Priest can prehot with Renew and they also have PoM to fall back on. I realise that classes have pros and cons to every encounter, it's just that when it comes to Infest, Druids (+Shamans +Paladins) fall behind. I don't have to do 25m raids to know that, it's simple logic. This really all depends on player skill and gear though, if you have an average priest and an exceptional Druid, the Druid is likely going to heal more during Infest.

Really though, what is the point in arguing about which class is best for 10m normal mode Lich King? You can kill him with any combination of healers. Something that you (currently) can not do with the 25 man heroic version. And on that encounter, your experience is exactly the same as mine: diddly squat.

[Falaras]

As long as there's no movement involved doesn't arcane suffer 0 from target switching? If all you're doing is tab-arcane blast I don't see how the mage loses anything switching targets...

If thats the case I don't see how Fire loses anything from tab-fireballing, I thought they where refering to movement where AB could wear off and procs could fall.

[aurik]

I never said i'd even participated in any 25m content. As i've already said my experience is from 10m raiding. Again, i'm just quoting what Paragon themselves have said about Lich King 25mH.

So basically you are admitting that you are talking out of your ass when you talk about what is or is not strong for 25 man. Thanks.

After having played all 4 healing classes for the Lich King encounter, I can say without a doubt that Restoration Druids aren't as strong as other healers. My guild is, I think, top 10 in the world for strict 10 man progression. I don't bother posting in the accomplishment thread as I don't see the point. I play this game for fun, not to boast about what pixels I have or haven't killed.

Good of you to back up your boast with an armory link, but let me be a bit of a skeptic seeing as you were posting about wiping to normal mode Rotface a full 2 weeks after Plague was released.

Your argument that a Restoration Druid can prehot to avoid complications with valkyr are null and void as a Holy Priest can prehot with Renew and also have PoM to fall back on. I realise that classes have pros and cons to every encounter, it's just that when it comes to Infest Druids (+Shamans +Paladins) fall behind. I don't have to do 25m raids to know that, it's simple logic. This really all depends on player skill and gear though.

Renew is only 12 seconds when glyphed and pretty weak unglyphed plus it requires you to rape your spec at the expense of your single target healing ability just so that it's close to as good as rejuv. Also, PoM has a tendency to get stuck on people that get topped off and then is inactive until recast (in addition to the CH-like healing out-of-assignment issue). Also, tell us more about how holy can compete with druid's fire-and-forget healing capability while incapacitated for upwards of 10 seconds.

Really though, what is the point in arguing about which class is best for 10m normal mode Lich King? You can kill him with any combination of healers. Something that you (currently) can not do with the 25 man heroic version. And on that note, your experience is exactly the same as mine: diddly squat.

You're the one trying to make the point that resto druids are the worst AoE healers for both 10 and 25, which is wrong and I've given you several solid reasons why.

Also I like how your argument has gone from "druids are the worst" to "druids and shamans and paladins fall behind". At this rate, you'll be soon arguing why holy priests aren't the worst.

[Plow]

They had to think of a method to go around this issue, as opposed to just heal through it?

Well I think Aurik's posts on this page summed it up pretty well, but what it all adds up to is that infest is one of the most intense, complex abilities to deal with in this fight. Defile = move. Valks = kill them. Plague = move next to a mob. VSpirits = move/kill. RSpirits = stay behind, kill. Frost balls = kill. Etc. etc.

Infest = assign proper healing, don't overlap, choose the appropriate heal, position people so that aoe heals link up, be aware that infest happens constantly and a lot of the time requires focus on other things at the same time, be precasting because you pretty much need every healer landing a heal the instant it hits, blah blah.

If there were a method half as complex as this, that would be one thing.

"Everyone hit the exact same button when it happens and don't worry jack shit about it" does not qualify there.

If thats the case I don't see how Fire loses anything from tab-fireballing, I thought they where refering to movement where AB could wear off and procs could fall.

Fire takes setup on individual targets and time for dots to start ticking. You can be fully charged from a few balls and turn and dump major burst into an Rspirit on demand.

Fire has the advantage on Vspirits, that's all for this fight. In every other respect arcane is far superior, even if there was no reason other than abarr.

[Arvin]

10man content is the same as 25man guys

[Falaras]

Fire takes setup on individual targets and time for dots to start ticking. You can be fully charged from a few balls and turn and dump major burst into an Rspirit on demand.

Fire has the advantage on Vspirits, that's all for this fight. In every other respect arcane is far superior, even if there was no reason other than abarr.

I had no idea we where talking about only this fight, I assumed we where arguing all of ICC. While I've never downed LK myself from what I understand Cleave damage far outweighs Burst, and Fire has the only cleave mages can get. I don't understand how fire takes "setup", Living Bomb starts ticking fast and you shouldn't have to worry about scorch with a warlock.

[[Cookies]]

So basically you are admitting that you are talking out of your ass when you talk about what is or is not strong for 25 man. Thanks.



Good of you to back up your boast with an armory link, but let me be a bit of a skeptic seeing as you were posting about wiping to normal mode Rotface a full 2 weeks after Plague was released.

It wasn't a boast. There are people on this site working on heroic 25 man Lich King. Besides, killing the lich king on 10 man normal isn't exactly the greatest of achievements. Heroic mode is another matter entirely. I'm not going to post an armory link as I have no reason to and I prefer to remain anonymous. I like the freedom of being able to bitch about my guild whenever I feel like thanks.

Renew is only 12 seconds when glyphed and pretty weak unglyphed plus it requires you to rape your spec at the expense of your single target healing ability just so that it's close to as good as rejuv. Also, PoM has a tendency to get stuck on people that get topped off and then is inactive until recast (in addition to the CH-like healing out-of-assignment issue). Also, tell us more about how holy can compete with druid's fire-and-forget healing capability while incapacitated for upwards of 10 seconds.

Lol. Any good Holy Priest will be using a Renew build as it's far superior to flash heal. Flash heal is really only worth using if you have a SoL proc. It isn't weak either.

I'm in a different guild now. If you'd like I can screenshot my leaving the guild post, PMs, or even a screenshot of me sat in front of the LK. Hey, whatever suits you best.

I said Druids were the worst of the AOE healers. I personally think that Shamans are slightly ahead but that depends on skill, gear, opinion and playstyles.

Let's just agree to disagree. I'm not going to change your mind and you aren't going to change mine. You aren't achieving anything other than wasting your time.

10man content is the same as 25man guys

Never said that. Aurik's experience is mostly 10 man anyways as he hasn't faced 25m Lich King heroic so he can hardly say that i'm wrong because my experience is 10 man onry!

Not going to post any further as i've said what I have to say. If you'd like to discuss anything further with me or tell me how "retarded" I am feel free to PM me.

[Kaylia]

"Everyone hit the exact same button when it happens and don't worry jack shit about it" does not qualify there.

I'm not saying it doesnt make the fight easier, it does. I'm saying you shouldn't punish people for cleverly using game mecanics. People who find strats deserve the credit, the rest are just monkey.

[Korietsu]

So arcane is 5% ahead because you made it 5% ahead with your own math? Its not like arcane is any good at target switching either, no mage spec is.

It's not my own math, it's pretty much fight mechanics work AGAINST fire. Again, people who have theorycrafting tools are not always right. Just because the model predicts something for xyz fight, doesn't mean it's going to work that way.

Fire relies on beating RNG, which makes it unreliable. It's also suffering from numerous bugs like ignite damage being resisted/munched. You can have 60%+ crit and have such a dry streak that you don't get any pyros off for the 2pc t10 bonus, whereas with arcane, the bonus is up 90% of the time.

You also have to deal with living bomb chewing up your HS procs at the wrong times, and the longer cast time of fireball vs arcane blast.

It's like the difference between using icewalker and tuskarr's vitality. Most people go icewalker is better because it's going to yield more DPS total in the simulator. However, on movement heavy fights, tuskarr's is superior.

If every fight was patch, fire would probably win barring RNG. Otherwise, it's a more suitable and sensible choice to go arcane because it's reliable, and as fights get downed faster each progressive week, arcane becomes even more reliable with it's CD's and the fact that they're going to be up for a greater portion of the fight each time.

It's pretty much reliability vs RNG. Most mages/raiders are going to pick reliable.

[aurik]

I'm not going to post an armory link as I have no reason to and I prefer to remain anonymous. I like the freedom of being able to bitch about my guild whenever I feel like thanks.

"I'd like to remain anonymous" is generally code for "I don't have the credentials / balls to back up my talk"

[[Cookies]]

"I'd like to remain anonymous" is generally code for "I don't have the credentials / balls to back up my talk"

That's the best you can come up with? Hahah. I don't have anything to prove to you. You just don't like it when someone doesn't agree with you. You think you're something special, you're not.

Why were you demoted from moderator again? Oh wait, I remember!

http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/3...1610222813.jpg

+1 to my ignore list. Toodles.

[Correction]

+1 to my ignore list. Toodles.

No no no, I shall have the last word!

No moar pissing contest like you promised a few posts ago plx.

[Eaglestrike]

Isn't that a screenshot taken at the beginning of the LK fight? So all that picture proves if you killed Sindragosa?

[Tricen]

Mad good

[Arvin]

Isn't that a screenshot taken at the beginning of the LK fight? So all that picture proves if you killed Sindragosa?

yea lol