Old League of Legends Thread

[Lebzile]

Info on Jarvan: (He better not suck shit like Maokai cause I'm planning on buying him. )

lol You think Maokai sucks.

[Rivero]

Well he doesn't suck. But he's subpar for sure. He needs a few tweaks and buffs. He fills the role of Off-tank with some CC/DPS and tbh Cho and Singed are much better tanks and DPS/CC so there's no point in grabbing Maokai atm.

[Lebzile]

How exactly are you building him? Which skills are you maxing first?

[The_OG_Nelta]

for MF, you have to have dmg on her. I got 21/0/9 always.

9/0/21 is not bad, but thats a lot of her dmg gone..

For MP problems, don't try harassing so much in lane. Just farm up. As for a build

Dorans blade > boots > dorans blade > IE or Blood razor depending on team > Sword of divine > Brutalizer > Blood thirster > Yomuus.
After the IE or blood razor, get boots of swiftness.

[Qeomash]

Wow. Umm...just wow. Add me to the list of people who think Kat is a little ridiculous (I've thought she was for quite some time). 4v5, we were the five. Our team setup was bad to fight her (Kennen stun and Garen silence to stop her ulti), and with an Eve to stun the Garen or me as an initiation.

[Rivero]

How exactly are you building him? Which skills are you maxing first?

I usually play him AP for fun. He's probably best played Tanky though. Rod of Ages/Banshees/Rylais/Frozen Heart etc.

I do Sappling > Roots > Knockback for my AP Build. I'd imagine as a Tank you want to max out the Root > Knockback and only use one point in Sapplings for scout.

It's not the build or the skill order. He's just kind of lackluster.

for MF, you have to have dmg on her. I got 21/0/9 always.

9/0/21 is not bad, but thats a lot of her dmg gone..

For MP problems, don't try harassing so much in lane. Just farm up. As for a build

Dorans blade > boots > dorans blade > IE or Blood razor depending on team > Sword of divine > Brutalizer > Blood thirster > Yomuus.
After the IE or blood razor, get boots of swiftness.

I would advise against 21 down Offense. Utility just gives you so much more and if you're up against a good player who is running potions you're just going to get out-laned like crazy.

Doran's Blade is okay for a duo-lane. Boots into IE is a great start. Your build has like no defensive items though, what happens if you get caught or hit by the tank?

[Rivero]

Oops, double post.

[The_OG_Nelta]

I usually play him AP for fun. He's probably best played Tanky though. Rod of Ages/Banshees/Rylais/Frozen Heart etc.

I do Sappling > Roots > Knockback for my AP Build. I'd imagine as a Tank you want to max out the Root > Knockback and only use one point in Sapplings for scout.

It's not the build or the skill order. He's just kind of lackluster.



I would advise against 21 down Offense. Utility just gives you so much more and if you're up against a good player who is running potions you're just going to get out-laned like crazy.

Doran's Blade is okay for a duo-lane. Boots into IE is a great start. Your build has like no defensive items though, what happens if you get caught or hit by the tank?

Of course a banshees or GA late game. I thought that was a given? sometimes if needed, just build a catalyst early game before IE. Helps stay in lane and builds into a banshees later on.

[Arvin]

jarvan is a fuckin boss

[Falaras]

Some interesting builds I want to try in this thread, I've been trying tons of different items on MF. I'm wondering about Last Whisper, I know most players run around with at least 1 armor item late game and you get armor for leveling anyways so it would never be useless but I don't know how good it is. I like having IE and Phantom Dancer on MF for pure damage, then go something like Mallet/Banshees/GA for defensive items and after that possibly look at a Bloodthirster though I'm not sold on it. I know the #1 guide on mobafire actually gets a Bloodthirster first and I don't like that at all for team fighting, it's nice for laning though. Mallet is pretty fucking sweet with the 700 health and the snare so she can chase like a pro without taking red or when its down, but it's also so expensive...

[The_OG_Nelta]

Don't follow guides. Play according to your own playstyle.

Also, for attck speed items, I think sword of the divine is a wayyy better item for MF then phantom dancer. Especially with her W.

[Lebzile]

He's just kind of lackluster.

http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t...lastmaokai.png

Nope, not if you know how to play him. Then again, I'm one of those few players who know how to play him, like Trundle.

[Akanei]

Also, for attck speed items, I think sword of the divine is a wayyy better item for MF then phantom dancer. Especially with her W.

Truth be told, my friends and I, personally, feel that MF (and most other ranged carries) do not really need to have attack speed items because of their skillsets.

You get such a huge boost and with the amount of time team fights should take, you can take out whoever you need to. In addition, it's a wasted stat when you're taking into account things such as her q and ult. Ashe is similar, due to how often volley is up, Corki because of skill spam, etc.

Sivir and Trist can sort of use it, but the former less-so because of q, but it does help her ricochet abuse.

tldr: Useful for towers, not so much for fights.

Edit for additional thoughts:

Also, 21/0/9 for ranged carries. Always. The only utility talent you can argue for is movement speed, which you can just use quints for. At higher level play, being able to avoid shit and maximize damage is infinitely more useful than the marginal utility talents.

[Tyrath]

Nope, not if you know how to play him. Then again, I'm one of those few players who know how to play him, like Trundle.

Knowing how to play a champion does not make them above average. It's possible to kick ass with any champ in this game if you play correctly and get the right conditions. Doesn't mean they are all very good. Trundle has a lot more going on for him than Maokai does. I think maokai could use a slight buff and he'd be pretty good.

[Rivero]

http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t...lastmaokai.png

Nope, not if you know how to play him. Then again, I'm one of those few players who know how to play him, like Trundle.

Your argument is sort of invalid. I never said I didn't know how to play him. I simply stated that he is lackluster compared to your other candidates.

And if you're comparing Maokai to Trundle then wtf, cause I fucking love Trundle lol. Trundle is actually played quite regularly but I've yet to see Maokai being frequently used. If you want to get into the logistics of it. Maokai is an Off-tank with decent Magic DPS. So let's look at his counterparts shall we?

Cho'Gath: - 1 AoE Slow which I'm pretty sure slows harder and hits harder.
- 1 AoE 3 Second Silence
- 1 Ult which is insanely amazing for taking out carries and is useful regardless of team comp (You have to build Maokai around a team, making his viability take a hard hit)

Singed: - Constant AoE DPS which scales rather nicely and combined with a Sunfire/Rylais is insane damage and moderately good slow.
- 1 Toss Back Ability which can shut down an enemy carry completely by tossing them into the middle of the fray. (1 AP Ratio too I believe)
- Highest AoE Slow in the game combined with Rylais if you want to slow even harder.
- His ult makes him go god-mode. Base damage of around 200-220ish, insane regen, movement, etc.


Already Singed and Cho bring more to the table compared to Maokai. What's the point of grabbing him again? A shitty Ward? A medicore AoE Slow which is actually harder to hit? A semi-decent single target bind and a shitty ult that doesn't deal that much damage and is easily avoidable.

I'd propose a buff to his sapplings in terms of duration and maneuverability. You can easily outrun them once you grab a pair of boots, and they don't last long enough to serve really as wards, Hell Corki has a better method of checking brushes with his damn rockets and you can have up to 7. They should last longer and you should be able to have more of them out at a time. I'm thinking his knockback thing should increase his damage slightly to help him take out carries and other key targets. And as far as his ultimate goes it could use a total rework. It's a nice concept but it's damage is pathetic while the effect sounds really nice on paper it just doesn't seem to actually do much in a real fight.

Also, 21/0/9 for ranged carries. Always. The only utility talent you can argue for is movement speed, which you can just use quints for. At higher level play, being able to avoid shit and maximize damage is infinitely more useful than the marginal utility talents.

For argument's sake lets avoid the first 9 points since either way you'll be getting them both, In offensive you gain;

-3 points of Raw damage (Sooo roughly 124.5 gold?)
-10% increase critical strike damage (Mediocre, but completely useless till you get an IE and does not affect your damage through skills. This would only be amazing on legit auto-attackers suck as Shaco (guaranteed criticals) or Trynd who is a complete 100% auto-attacker. MF can do some nice damage through her Q, E or R so it's not as great as you think it would be.) Remember that Ricochet cannot crit either so its uesless on Sivir since you're not even supposed to go IE on her.
-4 Extra Damage to minions (Crap. Only nice on Junglers like Udyr who fully benefit from this due to their insane attack speed and that extra kick of damage could save them from being killed by level 1 encounters like Blue Golem)
-6 Extra ArP (This is the only real nice talent. I think it's like 1/3rd of a Brutalizer? It's great but not worth losing an extra 15% reduced CD on summoner spells with a 240 base cooldown.)

And finally the only worthwhile talent is the 5% extra BASE DAMAGE and magical damage. At level 18 your base damage should be at like 100-110ish? So that's an extra 5 to 7 points of damage? I'm not even sure how well this scales since 5% of 50 is crap.

Utility gives you

-3 Mp5 (Faerie Charms I believe are 215 gold?)
-3% more base movespeed (It scales pretty nicely. Especially with heroes with latent movespeed or movespeed activation abilities like MF, Singed, Any Caster)
-6% Reduced CD (This is the equivalent of basically putting down an entire flat CDR rune set into your rune page, compare it to your 6 extra ArP or 10 physical damage and you still come out pretty short.)

Finally 15% reduced CDR on summoners. Meaning you'll be able to Flash and Ghost more in a game, meaning less deaths or more kills, more gold or more experience earned.

Hope I helped a bit.

[Akanei]

For argument's sake lets avoid the first 9 points since either way you'll be getting them both, In offensive you gain;

-3 points of Raw damage (Sooo roughly 124.5 gold?)
-10% increase critical strike damage (Mediocre, but completely useless till you get an IE and does not affect your damage through skills. This would only be amazing on legit auto-attackers suck as Shaco (guaranteed criticals) or Trynd who is a complete 100% auto-attacker. MF can do some nice damage through her Q, E or R so it's not as great as you think it would be.) Remember that Ricochet cannot crit either so its uesless on Sivir since you're not even supposed to go IE on her.
-4 Extra Damage to minions (Crap. Only nice on Junglers like Udyr who fully benefit from this due to their insane attack speed and that extra kick of damage could save them from being killed by level 1 encounters like Blue Golem)
-6 Extra ArP (This is the only real nice talent. I think it's like 1/3rd of a Brutalizer? It's great but not worth losing an extra 15% reduced CD on summoner spells with a 240 base cooldown.)

And finally the only worthwhile talent is the 5% extra BASE DAMAGE and magical damage. At level 18 your base damage should be at like 100-110ish? So that's an extra 5 to 7 points of damage? I'm not even sure how well this scales since 5% of 50 is crap.

Utility gives you

-3 Mp5 (Faerie Charms I believe are 215 gold?)
-3% more base movespeed (It scales pretty nicely. Especially with heroes with latent movespeed or movespeed activation abilities like MF, Singed, Any Caster)
-6% Reduced CD (This is the equivalent of basically putting down an entire flat CDR rune set into your rune page, compare it to your 6 extra ArP or 10 physical damage and you still come out pretty short.)

Finally 15% reduced CDR on summoners. Meaning you'll be able to Flash and Ghost more in a game, meaning less deaths or more kills, more gold or more experience earned.

First of all, seeing as the rest of the 12 points are determined by the first 9 you've gotten, you've left out quite a bit of other information. What if your first 9 meant you got mpen? What if you didn't (since some characters don't necessarily receive benefit of it save maybe 1 long cd skill [Ashe]). What if you got crit and not the AP talents? This certainly depends on the champion, but still.

Since gold-equivalent worth was brought up, I'll finish the rest of the talents not brought up. We'll use MF, for example.

Standard 9 on MF:
Deadliness 3
Archmage's Savvy
Sorcery 4
Archaic Knowledge

Other 12:
Alacrity 2 (Negligible, it's mostly a stop-gap, on top of a stat she really needs no points in, but it's 56 gold-ish, I guess)
Sunder 3 (Brutalizer is the cheapest option, and you shouldn't be getting it, nor a youmuu's on her, so that puts that talent at 534g)
Brute Force 3 (138g, easy. It's 1/3 of a long sword)
Lethality 3 (Dynamic gold worth, because of it scaling based on what your gear already is. Edge is a very common first item for most ranged carries [Whine all you want about crit not applying to skills, it is still one of, if not the best item for them, with reasonable exceptions going to Urgot, Corki, and Ezreal; Even Sivir can make use of it, because the initial hit, before bounces, still can crit. The value of it is just less worthwhile because it's easy to avoid dying and keep a Bloodthirster capped, on her.])
Havoc (Worth depends on champion. In MF's case, it's anywhere between 8-40 bonus damage to skills. Considering her ratio on her ult, that's equivalent to giving her an extra long sword. Characters with lower ratios make the worth go up. It's also free damage on skills she will never boost with items, like Make it Rain)

Now to hit utility tree:

My usual 9 down goes

Perseverance 3
Haste
Awareness 4
Meditation 1

Meditation's worth now drops from 180 to 120g, if I wanted to cap it, but, wait, now I'm losing a huge chunk because I've had to take off Havoc to do it. On top of that, and this is more of a personal preference, I run mp/5 per level glyphs and seals. I never have mana issues. Meditation loses effectiveness as the game progresses, because it does not scale and simply cannot keep up.

Next point into utility to get to the next tier is generally a trash point, but utility mastery is probably the best place, since it's not uncommon to get red.

I supported movement speed in my previous post, so I won't go much into that. If you're running quints though (and you should be), it's not so much of a loss, but still nice to have. Also keep in mind that it only applies to base movement speed, so it will not scale with items, passives or ghost.

Flash mastery is nice, won't argue against that, except for the off chance you do not get it. (Ghost/Tele, for example).

6% CDR? Generally worthless, comparatively. CDs are either too short for it to make any sort of difference or too mana intensive to make use of, or too long for it to matter unless you have some sort of need to keep the spell on permanent CD. If you really find yourself in a situation where you think "Man, if only I had that one extra spell to kill them and not die" in lane, you probably shouldn't have fought them, or you got tower dived. In a team fight? You probably died because you're out of position or your tanks/supports didn't do their job. If you want the CDR, then use per level glyphs. Late game? Just buy a blue elixir.

Presence of the Master is an amazing talent, except for two things: One, if your spells aren't on CD, then it's being wasted. In lane, it's generally a meh talent, unless you're getting bodied, since you'll probably need to use the spells to avoid dying more often. If you're doing really well, then their spells are probably on CD and you're on a farm/item advantage anyway. People also tend to miss the big picture in that not killing a person in lane isn't the end of the world. If you make them back, that's farm they're not getting and a more vulnerable tower. Oh well, you didn't get a kill; shut up and keep farming/pushing. In team fights, they're a one and done spell, anyway, so the talent doesn't even help, there. The other point is simply that you're going so far down into the tree to get it, with that first main flaw.

[Rivero]

While your points are strong don't get me wrong. In the end you're basically comparing 15% CDR on your Summoners to 5% extra Magical Damage, to be honest. While I love the 10% Bonus Crit it just doesn't seem to outweigh the rather subpar mid-range talents. You also forgot to mention that it's a lot harder to achieve CDR than it is ArP. You're never going to need 6 ArP because of LW and Black Cleaver. But 6% CDR is still pretty amazing, especially considering their nerf to CDR items. If you're going to argue Blue Buff, chances are if you're on a good team it's going to go to someone who needs it more (Mage Carry or Support).

You might be right on the fact that the Armor Pen talent is theoretically worth 500ish G but I only used it as a comparison in terms of sacrifice. Meaning it's much harder to achieve 6% CDR through Runes compared to 6 Armor Pen which is a measily 3-4 Runes.

All in all. I've seen many games lost a certain key moment in a team fight, (blinking out of an ult, ghosting for an escape and I think you can agree usually Summoner Spells will determine the outcome of a fight. Having that extra 15% CDR usually means it's less of a worry about whether or not you'll be fighting with Summoners and in the end it will outweigh that extra 8-40 damage.

I think the Offensive tree could use a serious rework. Especially since its completely catered to the physical heroes only.

[Akanei]

But 6% CDR is still pretty amazing, especially considering their nerf to CDR items. If you're going to argue Blue Buff, chances are if you're on a good team it's going to go to someone who needs it more (Mage Carry or Support).

I said blue elixir. That's 10% CDR for 250g. If you really want to, you can also make a case for ionian boots, too, depending on your play style.

Edit:

You might be right on the fact that the Armor Pen talent is theoretically worth 500ish G but I only used it as a comparison in terms of sacrifice. Meaning it's much harder to achieve 6% CDR through Runes compared to 6 Armor Pen which is a measily 3-4 Runes.

This argument irks me, as well. Putting aside the fact it takes 5 runes to match it (and CD per level only needs 6), there is no reason you shouldn't be using armor pen seals as a ranged carry, anyway. It all adds up and actually matters, early game. Your CD won't.

[Arvin]

gonna buy the sigma from mmx--- i mean commando jarvan skin.

http://i52.tinypic.com/28btd9l.jpg

[Rivero]

Holy fuck that is awesome.