The world's most feminist country: Iceland has just banned all strip clubs.

[Kuya]

I also don't think many feminists make the distinction between men simply being attracted to women, to men devaluing women from persons to mere objects.

Presumably being able to temporarily buy actual human beings to satisfy you might perhaps maybe help turn persons into objects, but it misses the fact that sex is and always has been bartered with, and that as long as certain rules are respected, people won't be so objectified that they turn into mere things.

Basically, i don't think men "objectify" women because of what they see but because it's part of socialization process gone extreme.

[Flatliner]

I fail to see how this has anything to do with feminism. In fact, wasn't sexual freedom one of the main goals of feminism originally?

[Kuya]

Sexual freedom means specifically the freedom to persue sexual relationships with others without being called a whore for it.

Sexual freedom for women does not mean stripping for cash or being a prostitute.

Feminists are interested in ending the objectification of women by obstructing either the ideological processes that objectify women or the physical means by which women are turned into commodities, such as the porn industry or mere stripping.

This is perfectly coherent with feminism whether you like it or not.

[dudeguy]

I fail to see how this has anything to do with feminism. In fact, wasn't sexual freedom one of the main goals of feminism originally?

That was 2nd wave feminism I believe, first wave was universal suffrage, while third wave is raving lunatic cunts trying to control everything.

[Kuya]

Let me see if i can use an analogy that makes this easier, at least for black people:

Saying that women should have the freedom to be strippers is like saying that black people should have the freedom to work for Walmart.

Maybe they do, but nobody who is not aware of the issues blacks go through can hear a statement like that and not laugh at your face. It's like a red herring.

[archibaldcrane]

Maybe it's due to american logic where buying thigns equals freedom but:

Restricting the rights of women to sell their bodies because men want them to sounds less objectionable to a general statement like "restricting the rights of women!". As if it were somehow equatable to the right to abortion. Interetingly you ignore the fact that the bill's language is also gender non specific, so men also can't strip for cash.

I only ignore the gender-neutral language because the feminists clearly don't give a shit about whether men are exploited. If the gender-neutral language is important, then it's a "victory for humanity" - not for feminists.

Any decent stripper knows that she is exploiting men's wallets, not the other way around.

So what now? Do the strippers just wear pasties and thongs? What if they're wearing burkas but still give lap dances?

Feminists who think this is the right thing to do give their gender very little credit - good strippers are savvy, emotionally manipulative, and make a shitload of money for it. Basically the feminists are saying "women are too dumb to possibly be in charge and maintain control when they're stripping - they're just being tools for men to use."

[Soa]

So much for my desire to visit Iceland.

[Beckwin]

I think if there was more male stripping/prostitution, we'd see much different outcomes legislatively.

and I sort of maybe think we're biologically precluded from that happening, because men just aren't as nice to look at as women (personal bias aside, aesthetics tend to fall more on the female side of things while other traits of attractiveness are more commonly what's left to men).

furthermore, I think the big hurdle now is eliminating the idea that "oh she enjoys sex she's a whore" mentality that men are exempt from, because when that happens, women enjoying porn, strip clubs, prostitution (and sex in general) becomes much much more socially acceptable and could give rise to a more gender-balanced sex industry.

[archibaldcrane]

Basically, the men treat the strippers like objects, and the strippers treat the men like walking ATMs.

Women win the "strip club objectivization" competition 9 times out of 10.

[Kuya]

and I sort of maybe think we're biologically precluded from that happening, because men just aren't as nice to look at as women (personal bias aside, aesthetics tend to fall more on the female side of things while other traits of attractiveness are more commonly what's left to men).

Personal bias lol

[Beckwin]

I only ignore the gender-neutral language because the feminists clearly don't give a shit about whether men are exploited. If the gender-neutral language is important, then it's a "victory for humanity" - not for feminists.

Any decent stripper knows that she is exploiting men's wallets, not the other way around.

So what now? Do the strippers just wear pasties and thongs? What if they're wearing burkas but still give lap dances?

Feminists who think this is the right thing to do give their gender very little credit - good strippers are savvy, emotionally manipulative, and make a shitload of money for it. Basically the feminists are saying "women are too dumb to possibly be in charge and maintain control when they're stripping - they're just being tools for men to use."

I see where you're coming from, but you've gotta be fair here: lots of strippers are not savvy and it's their (typically male) bosses who are really benefiting from the wallet exploitation you're talking about.

This is kind of the caveat of the sex industry: for all the in-control, savvy, and generally satisfied sex workers, there are at least an equal amount of abused and exploited ones. And, as with the sex industry as a whole, most of the exploited ones are female.

[Kuya]

I only ignore the gender-neutral language because the feminists clearly don't give a shit about whether men are exploited. If the gender-neutral language is important, then it's a "victory for humanity" - not for feminists.

Any decent stripper knows that she is exploiting men's wallets, not the other way around.

So what now? Do the strippers just wear pasties and thongs? What if they're wearing burkas but still give lap dances?

Feminists who think this is the right thing to do give their gender very little credit - good strippers are savvy, emotionally manipulative, and make a shitload of money for it. Basically the feminists are saying "women are too dumb to possibly be in charge and maintain control when they're stripping - they're just being tools for men to use."

Maybe. But i partially disagree with this because i just want to see tits, maybe that's all you really care about too.

[Cadsuane]

I also don't think many feminists make the distinction between men simply being attracted to women, to men devaluing women from persons to mere objects.

Presumably being able to temporarily buy actual human beings to satisfy you might perhaps maybe help turn persons into objects, but it misses the fact that sex is and always has been bartered with, and that as long as certain rules are respected, people won't be so objectified that they turn into mere things.

Basically, i don't think men "objectify" women because of what they see but because it's part of socialization process gone extreme.

I'd go further than that: The premise is intellectually bankrupt being so inconsistently applied. There's no reason why a vocalist can't be said to be objectified as a musical object more than a stripper as a sexual one; for it to be consistent the whole concept of human capital would have to be dismantled. As soon as that becomes apparent the whole question of objectification is reduced to a shallow normative statement about either societal rank (reveals elitist social values) or one about sex as dehumanization (reveals puritanical attitudes towards sexuality). An explanation of how this furthers the social status of women is going to require more rigorous language than that.

[Cadsuane]

Personal bias lol

What a fag.

[archibaldcrane]

Maybe. But i partially disagree with this because i just want to see tits, maybe that's all you really care about too.

I don't really like strip clubs.

I hate being objectivized like a walking ATM

Seriously, I think it's creepy. I don't even want my Hooters waitress to touch me while I'm ordering. Ugh.

[Kuya]

Never been to a strip club, but i do hope they stay away from porn, which feminists have tried to fight before.

[archibaldcrane]

Never been to a strip club, but i do hope they stay away from porn, which feminists have tried to fight before.

From the wording of this, I assume that all porn is illegal to produce in Iceland - but I doubt they had a particularly large industry in the nation of 330,000.

Shit, in a country that small everyone would just about be fucking related, no? The social stigma of being a stripper has gotta be amplified when most of the clients know who your father is.

[vagus]

I fail to see how this has anything to do with feminism. In fact, wasn't sexual freedom one of the main goals of feminism originally?

Almost seems like Iceland is stepping back a few years.

[aduidarnenye]

and I sort of maybe think we're biologically precluded from that happening, because men just aren't as nice to look at as women (personal bias aside, aesthetics tend to fall more on the female side of things while other traits of attractiveness are more commonly what's left to men).

I think naked women look absolutely ridiculous, with their boobs bouncing around and other parts jiggling about.

Men look much better naked than women, especially toned ones. Much better focus point too.

But then again, being a woman I'm probably biologically precluded from thinking women are attractive naked....

I think it's a 50-50 thing.

[Ryany]

I'm curious what their thoughts are on gold-digging. It's always bothered me in the US how so many obvious gold digging wives will stand up on their moral soapbox against strippers. The strippers are doing the exact same thing that they did (trading looks for money), only less subtle.