Chechen separatists blow up Moscow Subway, 35+ killed.

[510Meeze]

If it wasn't such a strategically important area for Russia they wouldn't give a shit.

You didn't need all the ranting and raving, one sentence covered your initial concern. The people can all go take a long walk off a short pier as far Russia is concerned, but the parcel of land is going nowhere. It doesn't matter if the Chech's all go boom, they aren't what is important in this equation.

[Kuya]

Stalin's ethnic cleansings probably played a role on this.

[archibaldcrane]

Stalin's ethnic cleansings probably played a role on this.

Did he target Muslims or Chechens specifically?

I actually know next to nothing about Stalin.

[Kuya]

In order to create a "more perfect union" Stalin enacted policies where he moved around communities and peoples to make governing the Soviet Union more plausible. Part of that was the forced movement (ethnic cleansing) of Muslim populations, particularly their isolation in order to avoid an uprising.

Consider Chechnya a Russian "blowback".

[Kuya]

Quote from Wikipedia:

In February 1956, Nikita Khrushchev in his speech On the Personality Cult and its Consequences condemned the deportations as a violation of Leninist principles, asserting that the Ukrainians avoided such a fate "only because there were too many of them and there was no place to which to deport them." His government reversed most of Stalin's deportations, although it was not until as late as 1991 that the Crimean Tatars, Meskhs and Volga Germans were allowed to return en masse to their homelands. The deportations had a profound effect on the non-Russian peoples of the Soviet Union and they are still a major political issue - the memory of the deportations played a major part in the separatist movements in Chechnya and the Baltic republics.

[archibaldcrane]

Sounds about par for the course.

[Kuya]

Not that i agree with violent methods, but let's be realistic here. If you ethnically cleanse people, you should expect to get bombed at some point.

[archibaldcrane]

Yeah, the question is just "who is 'you'"? Would be easier to sympathize with if they targeted military or political targets.

Random Russian civilians is a pretty fucked up target.

[Correction]

Yeah, the question is just "who is 'you'"? Would be easier to sympathize with if they targeted military or political targets.

Random Russian civilians is a pretty fucked up target.

Stalin didn't discriminate from civilians, so I don't expect the separatists to heed any rules of engagement, either. It's very hard to sympathize with violence on any level, but understanding their history and saying 'expect blowback' isn't an expression of sympathy.

[Kuya]

Yes, we, as non-involved civilians can discuss the proper way to go about our grievances, especially since you and me are not displaced people and we have legal avenues in which to express our demands.

But none of that matters to any of these people. Pragmatically, it is easier to attack civilians than military targets and i doubt these terrorists care at all about distinguishing between people directly or indirectly involved in their displacement. Not only is attacking civilians much more effective, but they probably hate Russiasn to an irrational degree.

Ultimately the best way to go about this would be to address real grievances, but considering the state of the rule of law in Russia i doubt (though i don't know for sure) that Moscow has made any real attempts to make up for what they did to the displaced.

So yes, we can sit here and make moral judgements about the methods of non State and State actors, but what really matters is if concrete interests are actually being addressed.

So, is Russia addressing the grievances of Chechnyans?

[archibaldcrane]

Does shooting at them with lots of tanks count as addressing grievances?

No?

Oh, then no, no they aren't.

[archibaldcrane]

What I'm trying to say is that if they were good Christians, they would've tried to attack policemen at least.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/03/29/...ex.html?hpt=T1

Spoiler: show

(CNN) -- Nine people federal prosecutors say belong to a "Christian warrior" militia were accused Monday of plotting to kill a Michigan law enforcement officer and then attack other police at the funeral.
Six Michigan residents, two residents of Ohio and an Indiana resident were indicted by a federal grand jury in Detroit, Michigan, on charges of seditious conspiracy, attempted use of weapons of mass destruction, teaching the use of explosive materials and possessing a firearm during a crime of violence, U.S. Attorney Barbara L. McQuade and FBI Special Agent in Charge Andrew Arena announced.
All but one of the suspects -- Joshua Matthew Stone, the 21-year-old son of the militia's leader -- were in custody by Monday morning and seven of them made their initial appearances before U.S. Magistrate Judge Donald A. Scheer, prosecutors said.
Joshua Stone was captured Monday night in Michigan's Hillsdale County, an FBI spokeswoman said.
Read the indictment (PDF)
The five-count indictment unsealed Monday charges that between August 2008 and the present, the defendants, acting as a Lenawee County, Michigan, militia group called the Hutaree, conspired to use force to oppose the authority of the U.S. government.
Attorney General Eric Holder called it "an insidious plan by anti-government extremists."
The group says on its Web site that Hutaree means "Christian warrior" and proclaims on its home page, "Preparing for the end time battles to keep the testimony of Jesus Christ alive."
In the "About Us" section of the Hutaree Web site, the group says, "We believe that one day, as prophecy says, there will be an Anti-Christ. All Christians must know this and prepare, just as Christ commanded."
The Southern Poverty Law Center, a nonprofit organization that monitors hate groups and other fringe organizations, lists the Hutaree as a "Patriot" group militia.
"Generally, Patriot groups define themselves as opposed to the 'New World Order,' engage in groundless conspiracy theorizing or advocate or adhere to extreme anti-government doctrines," the Southern Poverty Law Center said in a report, "Rage on the Right: The Year in Hate and Extremism."
The Law Center also defines Patriot groups as "militias and other organizations that see the federal government as part of a plot to impose 'one-world government' on liberty-loving Americans."
Mention of the Hutaree comes in the Law Center's list: "Active 'Patriot' Groups in the United States in 2009."
The suspects were identified as militia leader David Brian Stone, 45; his wife, Tina Stone, 44; his son, Joshua Matthew Stone, 21, of Clayton, Michigan; another son, David Brian Stone Jr., 19, of Adrian, Michigan; Joshua Clough, 28, of Blissfield, Michigan; Michael Meeks, 40, of Manchester, Michigan; Thomas Piatek, 46, of Whiting, Indiana; Kristopher Sickles, 27, of Sandusky, Ohio; and Jacob Ward, 33, of Huron, Ohio.
A bond hearing was set for 1 p.m. Wednesday.
A court-appointed counsel will be assigned to the seven suspects who were in court Monday because none of them had lawyers.
According to the indictment, Hutaree members view local, state and federal law enforcement authorities as the enemy and have been preparing to engage them in armed conflict.
The indictment alleges that the Hutaree planned to kill an unidentified law enforcement officer in Michigan and then attack officers and others who would gather for the funeral. According to the plan, the indictment says, the Hutaree wanted to use improvised explosive devices to attack law enforcement vehicles during the funeral procession. The indictment says those explosive devices, commonly called IEDs, constitute weapons of mass destruction.
Subsequently, the indictment says, Hutaree leader David Brian Stone obtained information about IEDs over the Internet and e-mailed diagrams to a person he believed could manufacture them. He then had one of his sons, Joshua Matthew Stone, and others gather materials necessary to manufacture IEDs, the indictment alleges.
According to the indictment, David Brian Stone and David Brian Stone Jr. taught other Hutaree members in June how to make and use explosive devices.
In addition, the grand jury charged all nine defendants with carrying or possessing a firearm during a crime of violence on at least one occasion.
"Because the Hutaree had planned a covert reconnaissance operation for April which had the potential of placing an unsuspecting member of the public at risk, the safety of the public and of the law enforcement community demanded intervention at this time," U.S. Attorney McQuade said.

[Howard Roark]

ugh, for some reason I actually pay attention when this happens outside of the middle east

35 people, what a waste

[archibaldcrane]

Honestly, why is it such a "strategic position"? It's landlocked, small and mountainous, it doesn't border any country that the rest of Russia doesn't border - any military strategist want to clue me in here?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...-03%29.svg.png

[Kuya]

It's close to the Caspian sea, so i assume it has to do with oil and gas.

[kuronosan]

Well, when a major Russian railroad runs through it, as well as rivers, as well as bordering a former soviet satellite nation (Georgia), it's not as if it's a position the Russians want to give up. It's not the same thing as the Israelis giving up the Gaza strip. The mountains pretty much give Russia that nice vantage point over Georgia (even though they surround them on more than one side, just imagine having someone who would ally with them and could let them 'invade' from the south).

It's not exactly a good idea.

[archibaldcrane]

It sounds like they have a little army of Jack Bauers up in there.

In 2006 Human Rights Watch reported that pro-Moscow Chechen forces under the command, in effect, of President Ramzan Kadyrov, as well as federal police personnel, used torture to get information about separatist forces. "If you are detained in Chechnya, you face a real and immediate risk of torture. And there is little chance that your torturer will be held accountable," said Holly Cartner, Director Europe and Central Asia division of HRW.

On February 1, 2009, the New York Times released extensive evidence to support allegations of consistent torture and executions under the Kadyrov government. The accusations were sparked by the assassination in Austria of a former Chechen rebel who had gained access to Kadyrov's inner circle, 27-year old Umar Israilov.

On July 1, 2009, Amnesty International released a detailed report covering the human rights violations committed by the Russian Federation against Chechnyan citizens. Among the most prominent features was that those abused had no method of redress against assaults, ranging from kidnapping to torture, while those responsible were never held accountable. This led to the conclusion that Chechnya was being ruled without law, being run into further devastating destabilization.

Delicious torture.

[Mayareira]

Its pretty easy to understand, allowing a state to secede is considered disastrous for any nation. Once you let go of a single state the rest will most definitely follow.

Its equivalent, or heavier than losing a war.

[archibaldcrane]

Are you implying that hanging onto Chechnya hasn't been disastrous?

[Kuya]

You're talking to a Turk. One word: kurds.

Among the most prominent features was that those abused had no method of redress against assaults, ranging from kidnapping to torture, while those responsible were never held accountable.

I was going to say that it sounds like America, but then i remembered that it is exactly like America.