Random Grammar Questions

[Meian]

Having been taught grammar in Georgia, or what they thought grammar was, I often require the assistance of google and other tools to find certain rulings when possible. But this doesn't always help when I am not sure what to look for so I come here.

Let's take this sentence for example:

"The bartender refilled Mike’s glass which he looked down at."

Besides the fact this could be written better, who is "he" in the sentence? Does it refer to the bartender because its following the action after he refilled Mike's glass? If so, then how can you properly make it so Mike looks down the glass after having it refilled? Would it be:
"Mike's glass was refilled by the bartender which he proceeded to look down at" ?

The other issue I have is with a rule regarding commas. I was taught that using commas to surround something was to provide additional information that the sentence could be read without them if needed.
An example: "The king, a strong and proud man, was the ruler of this land."
Is this always the case? I was told this wasn't always true.

[Nekonaruto]

"Mike's glass which he was looking down at was refilled by the bartender."
Would be my solution...but there might be a better/fancier one.

As for the commas: from what I remember it is what you said, you use commas to isolate details that are not necessary for the sentence's understanding.

[Ghost_Wheel22]

"grammer, smart one".

[Acturus]

Having been taught grammar in Georgia, or what they thought grammar was, I often require the assistance of google and other tools to find certain rulings when possible. But this doesn't always help when I am not sure what to look for so I come here.

Let's take this sentence for example:

"The bartender refilled Mike’s glass which he looked down at."

Besides the fact this could be written better, who is "he" in the sentence? Does it refer to the bartender because its following the action after he refilled Mike's glass? If so, then how can you properly make it so Mike looks down the glass after having it refilled? Would it be:
"Mike's glass was refilled by the bartender which he proceeded to look down at" ?

The "he" could be applied to either person, based on the structure of the sentence. Basically, it's a poorly-written sentence. I'm not sure the context of why you're asking, but when in doubt, re-write.

The other issue I have is with a rule regarding commas. I was taught that using commas to surround something was to provide additional information that the sentence could be read without them if needed.
An example: "The king, a strong and proud man, was the ruler of this land."
Is this always the case? I was told this wasn't always true.

No rule in the English language is 100%. I work in a field that uses and abuses commas (contract language and legalese), and it can get real ugly.

If I can throw myself back to elementary school language arts, commas serve two main purposes: One is to separate items in a list, and the other is to properly display additional information.

He bought eggs, bread, cheese, and milk from the store.

The fat man walks alone, and he also eats lots of cake.

Once you get into less direct language, commas help break thoughts up. In literary terms, you can preface a sentence with some information, add a comma, and continue the thought with the prefaced information firmly in place. For example, look at the previous two sentences in addition to this one.

Having said that, I am not the goodest at English writings, so take wut I sed with some grains of salt and stuff.

[Jabberwocky]

"The bartender refilled Mike’s glass which he looked down at."

An example: "The king, a strong and proud man, was the ruler of this land."

The first one, if you aren't going to rewrite it, I'd just add a comma after glass.

The second one is for parenthetical information, so yeah. You don't NEED it, but it is extra detail.

If you do rewrite it though "Mike looked down at his glass as the bartender refilled it." Though now it is in present tense, not perfect. So.... yeah.

[Therin]

"The bartender refilled Mike’s glass which he looked down at."

This is a tricky sentence because you have two people doing action in the same sentence. The passive voice that you're using with Mike makes it very awkward. Also, you should avoid ending sentences with "at" and other prepositions because it's not very good form.

The best way to reword your sentence is probably the following:

"Mike looked down at his glass after the bartender refilled it."

Additionally, you don't want the bartender carrying the main action of the sentence if Mike is your more important, viewpoint character (obviously he is, as the bartender is not named).

I cringed in pain when I read the original, and Nekonaruto's suggestion, honestly.

As for commas, your use of them is correct. If you're asking if that's the only way to use them - of course not, but what you have there is correct.

If you do rewrite it though "Mike looked down at his glass as the bartender refilled it." Though now it is in present tense, not perfect. So.... yeah.

Actually that's still past tense, you just changed it so that Mike noticed "as" he was refilling and not after.

[Jaybar]

When it comes to pronouns, it's typical to connect the pronoun to the most recently used noun. In your case, the "he" should have been "Mike", but it's not a great sentence to begin with. There are also better solutions, which some people have pointed out (lol, see below about this sentence - totally accidental).

When it comes to commas, those two general rules (item listing and additional information) are the most abstract forms of comma usage. When it comes to the words "which" and "that", however, there are special cases for each (both serve the same purpose in a sentence).

The word "that" should never follow a comma - ever. "Which", on the other hand, typically does follow a comma.

My coat, which is black, was tossed into the air.
My coat that is black was tossed into the air.

In short sentences, like the one you proposed, a comma does not necessarily have to be placed before "which", probably because syntax has changed over the course of several years. Anyway, hope this helps, because there is some other useful information in the previous posts as well.

[Nekonaruto]

I cringed in pain when I read the original, and Nekonaruto's suggestion, honestly.

Could you point out to me what is wrong in my sentence? Not a native speaker so I'm more than happy when people point out my mistakes. Is it the missplacement of "which"? Would "that" have been better in that sentence?

[Zeb]

I have spent most of the day putting in a comma and the rest of the day taking it out. — Oscar Wilde

One of my favorite sayings regarding the english language.

[Cream Soda]

When it comes to pronouns, it's typical to connect the pronoun to the most recently used noun. In your case, the "he" should have been "Mike", but it's not a great sentence to begin with. There are also better solutions, which some people have pointed out (lol, see below about this sentence - totally accidental).

When it comes to commas, those two general rules (item listing and additional information) are the most abstract forms of comma usage. When it comes to the words "which" and "that", however, there are special cases for each (both serve the same purpose in a sentence).

The word "that" should never follow a comma - ever. "Which", on the other hand, typically does follow a comma.

My coat, which is black, was tossed into the air.
My black coat was tossed into the air.

In short sentences, like the one you proposed, a comma does not necessarily have to be placed before "which", probably because syntax has changed over the course of several years. Anyway, hope this helps, because there is some other useful information in the previous posts as well.

The second sentence now looks much cleaner.

[Jabberwocky]

Actually that's still past tense, you just changed it so that Mike noticed "as" he was refilling and not after.

D'oh, you're right. It's early, forgive me.

[Vedder]

Great book about Punctuation and the like: Eats, Shoots & Leaves

[Jabberwocky]

But that is for British English, and British English has even more fucked up rules about commas than American English.

[Meian]

I won't lie saying the first sentence regarding Mike was good at all. It isn't strange the first thing I write tends to be ugly and even the rewrite ends up just barely better. Heck, even on BG I tend to edit my posts occasionally after posting in this manner.

When it comes to pronouns, it's typical to connect the pronoun to the most recently used noun. In your case, the "he" should have been "Mike", but it's not a great sentence to begin with. There are also better solutions, which some people have pointed out (lol, see below about this sentence - totally accidental).

When it comes to commas, those two general rules (item listing and additional information) are the most abstract forms of comma usage. When it comes to the words "which" and "that", however, there are special cases for each (both serve the same purpose in a sentence).

The word "that" should never follow a comma - ever. "Which", on the other hand, typically does follow a comma.

My coat, which is black, was tossed into the air.
My coat that is black was tossed into the air.

In short sentences, like the one you proposed, a comma does not necessarily have to be placed before "which", probably because syntax has changed over the course of several years. Anyway, hope this helps, because there is some other useful information in the previous posts as well.

In what instance does "which" not be followed by a comma? I had a draft returned and he made a comment on putting a comma before "which" in my sentence because the part that came after "which" was not directly regarding the part immediately before it (or something in that regard with the object)
"He had worked previously under Thomas Dudley in the Earl of Lincoln's household which allowed her access to their renaissance library allowing her to read many books."
Yes, the sentence isn't that great and could be broken into two sentences but he mentioned putting a comma before "which" in "household, which" stating what I said earlier.

"The bartender refilled Mike’s glass which he looked down at."

This is a tricky sentence because you have two people doing action in the same sentence. The passive voice that you're using with Mike makes it very awkward. Also, you should avoid ending sentences with "at" and other prepositions because it's not very good form.

The best way to reword your sentence is probably the following:

"Mike looked down at his glass after the bartender refilled it."

Additionally, you don't want the bartender carrying the main action of the sentence if Mike is your more important, viewpoint character (obviously he is, as the bartender is not named).

I should have mentioned that the bartender had said something which was followed by the sentence in question hence why I named him first. But I could just make it a new paragraph and put Mike's perspective (lack of better word) in mind since he is the one looking down as the main idea.

But your new sentence I was considering prior to reading it and am glad it was an acceptable rewrite. Just wish I wasn't hesitant before reading your rewrite.

If I can throw myself back to elementary school language arts, commas serve two main purposes: One is to separate items in a list, and the other is to properly display additional information.

He bought eggs, bread, cheese, and milk from the store.

The fat man walks alone, and he also eats lots of cake.

Once you get into less direct language, commas help break thoughts up. In literary terms, you can preface a sentence with some information, add a comma, and continue the thought with the prefaced information firmly in place. For example, look at the previous two sentences in addition to this one.

Having said that, I am not the goodest at English writings, so take wut I sed with some grains of salt and stuff.

In your second sentence with the fat man I thought you didn't need a comma if it was just two things being listed?

If I remember right, the commas being used in a list need to follow the same pattern otherwise it would need a comma splice (semi-colon I think)
A poor example that I can throw out:
"To understand how and why this is, the first step is to understand her past and education before immigrating to America; the second step is to understand her religion and the idea of conversion, and the third step is to see how it changed her views."

Granted, "this" in the sentence is context based but didn't want to make it longer than it already was for an example.

[Therin]

Could you point out to me what is wrong in my sentence? Not a native speaker so I'm more than happy when people point out my mistakes. Is it the missplacement of "which"? Would "that" have been better in that sentence?

Your sentence was just too awkward and wordy. It was:

"Mike's glass which he was looking down at was refilled by the bartender."

You're trying to convey these two things: 1) Mike looked down at his glass, and 2) The bartender refilled Mike's glass. In your sentence, the primary action is the bartender refilling the glass, and the fact that Mike is looking down at it only warrants a partial phrase within the sentence. Because of that partial phrase, it feels entirely out of place here.

You could state it like this:

"The glass that Mike was looking down at was refilled by the bartender," but then the voice becomes passive, and that's not preferred. Also there are a lot of "to be" verbs here that aren't really preferred.

Another option is:

"Mike's glass, which he was looking at, was refilled by the bartender."

This one is better but it has an appositive phrase. Sometimes these are necessary but they're excessive in this case, and this one doesn't help the sentence. Basically, the best way that I can find to write this sentence is:

"Mike looked down at his glass after the bartender refilled it."

I wish I could describe what I'm saying better - I realize it's not clear. Basically, you need something to set apart the phrase that you have inside that sentence.

[Sylvrdragon]

How about "Mike looked down at his glass as the bartender poured him a refill."?

Or, you said that the Bartender had said something in the last line; you could add "as he refilled Mike's glass" to the "he said" part of the line.

Example: "'[Insert dialog here]' said the bartender as he refilled Mike's drink." "Mike/He looked down at the now full glass. [This would be a good place for more dialog or thought-text or something]

[Nekonaruto]

Ok, I see. Thanks for the explanation Therin...even though I have a rather good grasp on grammar I mostly do it by feeling so non-sense sentences like that one are always a possibility.

[Drex]

I don't know the context of the original sentence, but if you are trying to emphasize Mike looking down at the glass because it's important for some reason, you could just split it into two sentences to emphasize the action. If not, is it really important to mention he looked down at all?

If it's just some kind of class exercise to restructure the sentence, then something like "Mike looked down at his glass after the bartender refilled it" would work.

[Moss]

What grade are you in?

[Therin]

How about "Mike looked down at his glass as the bartender poured him a refill."?

Or, you said that the Bartender had said something in the last line; you could add "as he refilled Mike's glass" to the "he said" part of the line.

Example: "'[Insert dialog here]' said the bartender as he refilled Mike's drink." "Mike/He looked down at the now full glass. [This would be a good place for more dialog or thought-text or something]

Those suggestions actually change the meaning of the sentence, as the originally noted the fact that Mike was looking down after the glass was refilled, likely because he had noticed that the bartender was refilling it or had said something. This is different than Mike looking down as the glass is refilled.