Rage Normalization = FFXI?

[ringthree]

In FFXI, mana was the cornerstone of tank threat, not TP. What's the pld gonna do: circle blade to hold AOE threat?

Rage shares very little in common with TP, at least when confined to the rules of each game. Perhaps FFXIV's concept of TP, in which we'll be able to use segments instead of the entire chunk all the time, will be far more similar to this new rage.

Actually they do sound similar, but WoW still uses smaller bits and portions of rage than any FF TP concept.

I was just comparing the "generation" side of the resource. It is incredibly obvious that the way that Rage and TP are used are completely different. Blizzard is not fundamentally changing how Rage is used as a resource, they are just changing how it is generated.

I will mention that there is much more similarity now between Warriors in WoW and Dancers in FFXI when it comes to Rage "consumption".

Outside of a few factors on the WoW side (Crits) and the FFXI side (Store TP), the system of resource generation is fundamentally the same. Swing speed determines how much of the resource you get. Haste even functions pretty much the same for both scenarios, in that the faster you swing, the faster you get your resource.

I would not be surprised at all to find in FFXIV that TP is generated in the same way as FFXI (and now WoW) but is spent more in the way that WoW now functions, in that certain abilities only cost a certain amount of TP instead of all of it like in FFXI.

[Correction]

You are another one that just gets a raging woody to argue with me. LOL

What do you not understand about Rage generation? I don't think that Warriors of any flavor (except maybe Fury) are complaining about the options they have for spending their rage. It's Rage generation that is the issue.

It's both, really. The two extremes (mitigation tank, infinite rage vs avoidance tank, rage starved) have never been well balanced in PvE. Bosses currently hit too hard for tanks to stack anything other than armor/stam anymore. Before, bosses didn't hit you often enough and you needed to do shit like intentionally stand in AOE just to keep your threat up. In both cases you are losing TPS the better your gear gets in the existing raid environment, a fact currently hidden by the ridiculous lead on threat granted by rogues/hunters on any given pull. Tanking as 'macro Heroic Strike on all your buttons' is just as uninteresting as 'blow a cooldown every time you take two hits and Shield Block is off.' The only real fun in tanking is the situational awareness it builds, not the fun of the core mechanic of the class. Warriors just aren't special when they're constantly hovering under 30 or over 90 rage the whole fight. I guarantee you they squawk on both sides of that balance board.

It's not essentially about one side of the Rage input/output mechanic over the other, which you seem to put forth. But hey keep thinking that I'm disagreeing with you because I care who you are or that you posted a 'let's compare this game to FFXI again' topic. I guess it's so much easier to pretend I said 'yay this change is crap' and call me a jerk than actually think about what I've actually said.

[ringthree]

It's both, really. The two extremes (mitigation tank, infinite rage vs avoidance tank, rage starved) have never been well balanced in PvE. Bosses currently hit too hard for tanks to stack anything other than armor/stam anymore. Before, bosses didn't hit you often enough and you needed to do shit like intentionally stand in AOE just to keep your threat up. In both cases you are losing TPS the better your gear gets in the existing raid environment, a fact currently hidden by the ridiculous lead on threat granted by rogues/hunters on any given pull. Tanking as 'macro Heroic Strike on all your buttons' is just as uninteresting as 'blow a cooldown every time you take two hits and Shield Block is off.' The only real fun in tanking is the situational awareness it builds, not the fun of the core mechanic of the class. Warriors just aren't special when they're constantly hovering under 30 or over 90 rage the whole fight. I guarantee you they squawk on both sides of that balance board.

It's not essentially about one side of the Rage input/output mechanic over the other, which you seem to put forth. But hey keep thinking that I'm disagreeing with you because I care who you are or that you posted a 'let's compare this game to FFXI again' topic. I guess it's so much easier to pretend I said 'yay this change is crap' and call me a jerk than actually think about what I've actually said.

You are going way out in left field. I wasn't claiming that Warrior didn't have other issues that need to be resolved. I will repeat it again, the only reason I posted this was because both Blizzard and SE use swing speed to determine resource gain.

All of your arguments up until this point have nothing to do with the topic at hand. I am sorry if I interpreted this as confrontation when it was really just a complete lack of understanding of the topic at hand.

It is possible to compare games across a similar genre without turning it into a pissing contest. I think the fact that similar solutions to similar problems can be found in completely different games with completely different combat systems. I think it is interesting that there is an amount of universality that can appear across to games that were not intended to mimic one another. It isn't about "copying" or "stealing", it is about problem solving and the fact that some things are universal even across games.

[Correction]

All of your arguments up until this point have nothing to do with the topic at hand. I am sorry if I interpreted this as confrontation when it was really just a complete lack of understanding of the topic at hand.

Looking at the broader picture =/= complete lack of understanding of the topic at hand. I understand how rage generation works, I've understood it for a long time. I even understand the update on rage generation, but what I also understand, and what you are brushing off as irrelevant, is that we have not been given every single detail about how warriors will manage their rage in the coming expansion. Evening out the accumulation of rage via attacks is only half of the 'how do we make warriors actually think about how they consume their core resource?' problem and Blizzard has emphatically stated that they want that decision to become more meaningful. Said that way, the 'entire issue' is not simply how fast rage is incoming. The change to Heroic Strike as an instant attack, for example, is clear evidence that Blizzard is thinking about how rage is spent. On next swing attacks are a garbage brainless mechanic.

Your chest-pounding insistence of 'I AM ONLY HERE TO TALK ABOUT HOW RAGE IS GENERATED' and your fascination with raging hard-ons exposes you as the one trying to pick a fight, or something.

[Siniroth]

Am I the only person who likes 'On next swing' attacks and think they should add more to give some variety in choice as to what to do on next swing?

[Eaglestrike]

Am I the only person who likes 'On next swing' attacks and think they should add more to give some variety in choice as to what to do on next swing?

I hope so.

[Aesctaa]

So if its such a poor mechanic and the balance needs to be addressed, how would YOU fix it while "still keeping the heart and soul of the class" in it?

I figured the heart and soul was seeing a screaming, frothing plate-clad barbarian rushing towards its enemy, spamming some thundering move, and shouting "MOAR SUNDERZ!"

I'd fix it for DPS warriors by limiting the gear ilvl gap between the first tier of cata raid and the final tier of cata raid.

This change makes more sense for prot, i don't dispute that, but i would have preferred a deep prot talent that increases rage generated per swing, and rage gained from damage taken to be reduced, than to totally rip dps warrior apart while trying to help the niche of warrior OT dps.

The system at present is hard to balance fairly for all classes, for both new 80s and heroic ICC veterans because the gear performance gap is so colossal, when this is applied to warriors it is multiplied to an unacceptable level.

The Warrior imbalance is a symptom of the gear budget inflation that WotLK has brought, and it's not the only symptom, the constant pvp burst issues throughout this expansion, and now the relative strength of healers versus HP pools that have led to overly 'bursty' healing, where people are almost always at 100% or dead, with not much time/room in between.

They are trying to fix all these issues through various means(some i'm less optimistic about than others), i believe the only change they really needed was to limit how extremely the gear scales through cata, while ensuring a greater proportion of the ilvl budget was allocated to stamina.

[Aesctaa]

Am I the only person who likes 'On next swing' attacks and think they should add more to give some variety in choice as to what to do on next swing?

I like them too, switching rapidly between cleave and HS adapting to situations is pretty fun, but the carpal tunnel from spamming the buttons is not. i wish they just made it like a toggle switch and left them in to be honest.

It could be even more fun if there were a few more options for them like you mention, i can't think what kind of things of the top of my head but it would be pretty cool.

Classes limited to the GCD feel far too slow for me, even rogue with its short GCD doesn't feel as though it has enough adaptability to rapid situation changes.

[Norellicus]

Am I the only person who likes 'On next swing' attacks and think they should add more to give some variety in choice as to what to do on next swing?

I like the option feel of them instead of spam buttons, but they need to be 'modes', not buttons that have to be pressed for every swing. Or they need to make them less valuable so we aren't using them as often as we are now.