Wikileaks Releases Video Depicting US Military Killing Dozen Iraqis Including Two Reuters Employees

[shepardG]

You don't know what I may or may not have done in terms of activism.

Your right brother, I didn't know. I apologize. Makes you mad when somebody assumes they know what's going on in another persons shoes doesn't it.

[Faris]

[]"When shells are hitting all around you and you wipe the dirt off your face and realize that instead of dirt it's the blood and guts of what once was your best friend beside you, you'll know what to do!"[/size]

lay off the bigass font, i think people can read the normal text just fine.
also, troll?

[guartz]

It's because they hate our freedoms.

Pax Americana!

[Elvis]

I just saw this thread turn into a bunch of folks trying to figure out why things like this happen, and having pondered that shit with a mans burnt flesh on my hands, after I placed what was left of his body in a black bag, i'll tell you: You don't ever figure out why it happens. You think and think about it, and judging from my own demons and the demons i've seen friends and family deal with you don't ever figure it out.

Dear god, I can't believe I forgot to comment on this pretentious garbage. Think about what? What are you even saying?

Look, you don't have to fight a war, to criticize the justification for war. I don't have to go over there, kill some brown people, feel bad about it, come back home, to find answers as to whether this war is right or wrong.

You're building this paradigm of parity between the strongest army in the world and the civilians killed in a country, said army invaded and occupied, as a result of said invasion and occupation.

You're also mystifying the conflict.

[miokomioko]

lay off the bigass font, i think people can read the normal text just fine.
also, troll?

If you were familiar, the font size would be understandable.

Also, who cares? It's relevant.

[*Shinzon*]

Keep watching @3:58 when he picks it up and starts to walk (the guy in the crosshairs). If that's a gun, it's gotta be -really- fucking long - and what, is he resting it on the ground by the muzzle?

I think I see what you see finally, and you're talking about the skinny dude at the top of the screen. When he's walking next to the big guy next to him it appears like a weapon, then as he rests it on the butt end, it looks like a tripod because of the shadows. That's a good pick up, I'm actually not as certain as I was before, but I would have to agree with the pilot's instincts of it being a gun. It's tough to make that call though.

[guartz]

Ok ok guys. Seriously.

The first thing everyone should have noticed wrong with that clip is that we actually have a government that has gunships.

The rest is to be expected.

[shepardG]

It happens because you put your trust in the government in an attempt to do the right thing, and they take advantage of that trust by inserting you into a war that never should've happened.

Archi, man, I would tell you how mad I was/still am at the goverment but it ain't them alone.
It's society, it's humanity, it's every baby born onto this rock of ours.

Ain't a president or a goverment gonna keep their people safe and/or un-involed with the rest of the world, especially when men start to take power, instead of earn it.

You delay it for a day, a year, or a century but eventually killing for a cause affects everyone on this planet. 9/11 people were mad, and do you think we learned our lesson? do you think we'll let ourselves be influenced by the goverment and the media the way we were in 2002? scared shitless that another bombs gonna pop off? ready to strike out at anything that might cause us harm?

Shit. We didn't learn fuck. 40 years from now our children will be just as susceptible to the same type of anger, and there ain't shit we can do about it. I stopped blaming the government when I realized that America elects the government, and america's made up of humans.

I mean fuck, if you could travel through universes and your people hadn't killed one another EVER, why in gods name would you make yourselves known to these fucking parasites all over this sphere...? I know my ass wouldn't. *gdi I got PT in the morning I need to get to bed*

[*Shinzon*]

No, they're jobs are NOT to be sociopaths. I never said they had to hold hands w/ the fucking insurgents.

But when you say outlandish shit while killing people, make jokes about driving over dead bodies/etc. - yes, that indeed is evidence of the dehumanization of the people getting killed/etc. and those doing the killing SHARE the responsibility.

Let me be crystal clear.

What they did was wrong. The investigation proves this.

The only relevant discussion at this point, after all these pages is whether they were reasonable in their mistake.

According to their own rules, I think they didn't do anything wrong. That means nothing to me.

As I said, I think the war is wrong, so I see this not as an isolated incident by a SYSTEMATIC problem.

Please, lecture me more about how war sucks.

That didn't come out like I wanted it to and I wont try to explain it again because I really don't think I can right now, but I'll say this. War itself desensitizes those involved. Are they desensitized to the violence? No doubt about it. If they weren't, they wouldn't be able to do their job and that was my point. After awhile it gets to you, and changes how you act sometimes. Also allows you to tolerate and do things/say things you wouldn't ordinarily say.

The actions they took are far from wrong, and even by ICJ, international criminal justice standards, far from criminally liable for the collateral damage. It's a terrible thing to happen, and was noted as such. Unfortunately that doesn't quell the obviously moral outrage that you and others appear to have towards the incident. Morals are subjective, however and if you are going to try to argue that they shouldn't of opened fire on clearly armed men, in an area where friendly forces are under fire, you'll never win because they were protecting their guys. Have a problem with that? Then the war is your issue, not the soldiers. Could they have waited? Probably, but that's an issue with rules of engagement and orders, not the actions taken. What you perceive as wrong during everyday life does not apply in every situation during wartime.

Even if you don't agree, you must accept.

[shepardG]

Elvis, since I don't know, how many times have you been shot at? cause "pretentiousness" and "mystifying" go right out the window when a man's trying to kill another man.

"Strongest army in the world" don't mean crap when a 7.62 round will kill me just as dead as the guy who got hit with a hellfire missle.

[Elvis]

It's society, it's humanity, it's every baby born onto this rock of ours.

Ok, so am I correct to assume you served over there?

So you made a specific decision, correct? Did you try to figure out why we went there in the first place? Maybe read up on the history of the region? After you came back of course. I figure by and large, most people don't know what they are getting in to.

It's not your experience I'm a cynic about, BTW. It's how you segue it into this ridiculous vague generalized nonsense. Most of which, is technically true but totally USELESS when people are trying to figure out the truth.

[Rhinox]

Shit you've convinced me.

There is no hope.
There is no Change.
only... emptiness.
Broken..Promises..
Unfulfilled dreams..
corrupt...souls...







what do I have to live for then....?

[Elvis]

Elvis, since I don't know, how many times have you been shot at? cause "pretentiousness" and "mystifying" go right out the window when a man's trying to kill another man.

"Strongest army in the world" don't mean crap when a 7.62 round will kill me just as dead as the guy who got hit with a hellfire missle.

There you go again sounding like a cliche.

You have all this experience, yet you sum it up as a big mystery. Like you woke up one day with the memory of Iraq in the back of your mind.

I'm not going to give any soldier shit for going over there. However, when you try to make it all seem like a big tragedy that 'just happens' - I'll call bullshit.

I'm not blaming you of course. It's not like YOU and other soldiers draw up the war.

You fight it. Someone else thinks it up. Things are much more complex, so for you to say the intellectual equivalent of 'oh the humanity' - yes, I think that's pretentious.

I'm not criticizing your experience. I'm criticizing the segue.

You have more experience than me and have seen some crazy shit. I am not trying to knock you for that or degrade that.

[shepardG]

Shit you've convinced me.

There is no hope.
There is no Change.
only... emptiness.
Broken..Promises..
Unfulfilled dreams..
corrupt...souls...

what do I have to live for then....?

Hope.

Haven't you played FFXIII?

and i think that's thread.

[Elvis]

Yea, why did I even think of making this thread.

Shit happens. People kill people, news at 11.

Back to Aion. Fuck, I wanted to get 26 Templar today too. Goddamn Iraqis.

[archibaldcrane]

Archi, man, I would tell you how mad I was/still am at the goverment but it ain't them alone.
It's society, it's humanity, it's every baby born onto this rock of ours.

Ain't a president or a goverment gonna keep their people safe and/or un-involed with the rest of the world, especially when men start to take power, instead of earn it.

You delay it for a day, a year, or a century but eventually killing for a cause affects everyone on this planet. 9/11 people were mad, and do you think we learned our lesson? do you think we'll let ourselves be influenced by the goverment and the media the way we were in 2002? scared shitless that another bombs gonna pop off? ready to strike out at anything that might cause us harm?

This fear, this anger, is rational. The focusing it on fucking Iraq of all places was completely engineered and manipulated willfully by the Bush administration, and the fucking pussies in Congress (except Russ Feingold because he's a boss) tripped over each other to see who could roll over first.

It's times when the public's passions are the most inflamed that we need level-headed leaders who don't abuse their positions of power. We, unfortunately, had the opposite of that.

The most ashamed I've ever been as an American was when I was watching the news and saw we gave Saddam Hussein a 48-hour deadline to leave Iraq because we were really mad at brown people and made up some bullshit about how dangerous he was to us.

And did we learn anything? We, as Americans, as a collective, don't even care to gain information about what the fuck even happened that would be required to even have a chance to learn anything. We're fucking hopeless, and the fact that it has put people like you and my sister elbows deep in the body parts of your fellow soldiers body parts is something that I will never forget.

[Correction]

I've been shot at and I've touched dead bodies, therefore it's okay for the Pentagon to cause delays in medical care to wounded children and cover up the deaths of innocent journalists.

[guartz]

There is something morally shady about people who are trying to defend actions of these soldiers. I mean, I don't see you defending mexican gangsters who mow down town homes because potentially rival gang member are living there... who may or may not be armed.

What's with the big contradictions?

[*Shinzon*]

There is something morally shady about people who are trying to defend actions of these soldiers. I mean, I don't see you defending mexican gangsters who mow down town homes because potentially rival gang member are living there... who may or may not be armed.

What's with the big contradictions?

That's just an ignorant and poorly designed comparison. Morals are subjective to start, the instincts to protect your fellow soldiers are not, and it isn't the same as beating out a rival gang for turf. What exactly is morally unsound about what they did? The comments they made? Or the killing they did?

[Kuya]

Intincts aren't usually rational, nor do they care for facts.