Wikileaks Releases Video Depicting US Military Killing Dozen Iraqis Including Two Reuters Employees

[Kuya]

I really wish we would get off the discussion of what the soldiers intended or whether they broke any rules of combat or not. I doubt most of us have enough information for that, but what we do have enough information about is the fact that the government intently misled people about this, and this video shows that most of people killed were all civilians. Furthermore, if one, for even a second, is capable of seeing this from the perspective of someone living in the Middle East, one can easily see how american military presence is completely contradictory to any idea of the US trying to stamp out terrorism.

[guartz]

You can hate the war, you can hate the reasons we were misled into having it, you can hate the fact that innocents will and do die, and you can hate the military for attempting to cover up this situation. But what the soldiers in the chopper did was not wrong in the least and was actually handled fairly well as far as military situations go, sure they said some things that gives you plenty of fuel to hate them but the wrong doing is not there, at least not on the soldiers parts.

because, because! They are soldiers! We were all raised to respect that profession, how can anyone say otherwise!?

[thetruepandagod]

uh no

Because assuming long dark objects hung over the shoulder and hidden around a corner that resemble weapons and opening fire after getting permission to do so is wrong? Because seeing an unmarked van pull up and begin helping who you have already come to the conclusion as being a threat is aiding said threat and is possibly a threat itself and opening fire after requesting permission? This is a war against guerrilla tactics, these are people that like to hide in groups of civilians and store their weapons in churches and schools, is your first thought after JUST taking out a group of supposed threats really, "hey this could be a van of well intentioned civilians with children attempting to help people and get them to the hospital?"

[Mojo]

I really wish we would get off the discussion of what the soldiers intended or whether they broke any rules of combat or not. I doubt most of us have enough information for that, but what we do have enough information about is the fact that the government intently misled people about this, and this video shows that most of people killed were all civilians. Furthermore, if one, for even a second, is capable of seeing this from the perspective of someone living in the Middle East, one can easily see how american military presence is completely contradictory to any idea of the US trying to stamp out terrorism.

You're willing to base such a huge statement on a single video?

[thetruepandagod]

Furthermore, if one, for even a second, is capable of seeing this from the perspective of someone living in the Middle East, one can easily see how american military presence is completely contradictory to any idea of the US trying to stamp out terrorism.

It's a given that we appear closer to monsters then as saviors, i didn't think it needed to be said, but it just seems like an entire thread about elvis and co bashing on things that need not be bashed upon.

because, because! They are soldiers! We were all raised to respect that profession, how can anyone say otherwise!?

I respect soldiers as much as i respect a butcher or a sushi chef.

[Kuya]

You're willing to base such a huge statement on a single video?

Your statement is not specific therefore i don't really know what you're talking about.

[Rhinox]

I really don't have the energy to do it.

Otherwise I'd post all the stories of heavy civilian casualties as well as relink here the story of the special forces that killed women then preceded to dig out the bullets from the bodies an wall in an attempt to cover up. As well as the many other cases where our soldiers have committed murder.

[Kuya]

By the way, if the argument that we shouldn't blame the soldiers is because of some american jigoism shit, then i don't give a fuck.

[Mojo]

Furthermore, if one, for even a second, is capable of seeing this from the perspective of someone living in the Middle East, one can easily see how american military presence is completely contradictory to any idea of the US trying to stamp out terrorism.

This

[thetruepandagod]

I really don't have the energy to do it.

Otherwise I'd post all the stories of heavy civilian casualties as well as relink here the story of the special forces that killed women then preceded to dig out the bullets from the bodies an wall in an attempt to cover up. As well as the many other cases where our soldiers have committed murder.

Im not trying to make excuses for every single atrocity that happens in war if you are responding to me... i acknowledge that there is a lot of fucked up things that happen and will continue to happen and i don't approve of them and i don't like that civilian casualties happen, but for this ONE instance i think it was handled fine.

[Rhinox]

Lt.Col Tony Shaffer disagrees.

And he lays out a pretty convincing case why.

[thetruepandagod]

By the way, if the argument that we shouldn't blame the soldiers is because of some american jigoism shit, then i don't give a fuck.

Soldiers that do depraved violent acts upon innocents in the name of patriotism or xenophobia or just plain anger/hatred should be dealt with and should not represent our country or our army, but in the op's vid i didn't see soldiers making conscious decisions to shoot women and dig the bullets out of their body, i see soldiers percieving something as a threat and dealing with it, and then moving in and taking what they discover to be wounded civilians to a hospital.

[Kuya]

This

This incident is another event in a long line of events that lead into that statement.

[Rhinox]

Whats the amount of civilian death acceptable to you guys in order to keep the risk of death away from one of our soldiers?

5? 10? 100? 1000?

this could have been avoided if they just would have waited 8 mins for boots on the ground to get there and make sure this outrage would have never happened.

And before you ask I don't wish ill to our American soldiers But it seems like we are becoming more comfortable with taking boots off the ground and instead relying more and more on drones, missiles and heavily armored attack helicopters too keep the number of solider deaths to a minimum at the expense of heavy civilian casualties.

At what point do you draw the line?

[thetruepandagod]

And he lays out a pretty convincing case why.

thx for the vid link i actually liked it a lot.

I liked how he talked about how he was extremely close to shooting an innocent child and only due to his training and experience he was able to withhold from making a grave mistake. Ill agree that the minimum amount of force clearly wasn't used, but honestly i cant see it being used outside of ideal situations, he talked about how he would have rather taken them in and gained intelligence, would that intelligence have been worth x amount of lives had they been threats and opened fire?

"Im hoping no one here is seeking to specifically indict any of these soldiers at all, but i think its critical that we acknowledge that in the fog of war, in the context of combat that this is what is happening..."

Quote pretty much sums up my feelings on this really

Whats the amount of civilian death acceptable to you guys in order to keep the risk of death away from one of our soldiers?

There is no acceptable amount obviously but you do have to be able to accept that it does happen.

[archibaldcrane]

The number of civilian deaths at our hands that we, and Iraqis, and the world community, should be willing to tolerate in Iraq is 0. We topped that in March 20th, 2003.

I'll let you all figure out why.

[archibaldcrane]

There is no acceptable amount obviously but you do have to be able to accept that it does happen.

Why do we have to accept our invasion of a sovereign nation under false pretenses and the killing of ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND [1] Iraqi civilians?

Why do we have to accept that? I reject this. It is completely unacceptable. Completely. There is no justifying it.

[Kuya]

It is kind of a shitty false dilema.

Why should any amount of civilian casualties be acceptable in a war of aggresion where lies were used to go to war?

[Faris]

whats this about war?
this is an invasion; NOT a war. the war ended couple of years ago.

[Cadsuane]

whats this about war?
this is an invasion; NOT a war. the war ended couple of years ago.

Not terms that are mutually exclusive. Try "occupation", maybe throw in some spicy adjectives like "unlawful" or "despotic". Also talk about how gleefully you anticipate the murder of American civilians in retalliation some more; we really liked that.