Wikileaks Releases Video Depicting US Military Killing Dozen Iraqis Including Two Reuters Employees

[*Shinzon*]

That's a mile outward not upward. I don't understand the ceiling spec mention as 21,000ft is over 4 miles.

My only point is that I think it is likely they did not know it was there.

Disassociated from that - Your argument that they heard it and had nothing to hide is not sound. People do not walk around active zones brandishing weapons in Iraq while at the same time believing that U.S. forces are not going to identify them as at least a possible target. I think it is much more likely that they were in the area of a recent engagement and did not know that the attack helicopter was there. These people have seen what Apaches do and they don't just hang out with guns for no reason.

Not to mention it's clear they don't know the gunship is even there until after it opens fire. Two things are clear: They didn't hear or see it initially.

[Elvis]

That's a mile outward not upward. I don't understand the ceiling spec mention as 21,000ft is *edit* just under 4 miles.

My only point is that I think it is likely they did not know it was there.

Disassociated from that - Your argument that they heard it and had nothing to hide is not sound. People do not walk around active zones brandishing weapons in Iraq while at the same time believing that U.S. forces are not going to identify them as at least a possible target. I think it is much more likely that they were in the area of a recent engagement and did not know that the attack helicopter was there. These people have seen what Apaches do and they don't just hang out with guns for no reason.

Which people and what guns? Be specific, the investigation found that both 'guns' were actually 2 different sets of cameras which would explain why the people in the video who were gunned down did not scurry around or seem to be hiding anything.

[archibaldcrane]

Not to mention it's clear they don't know the gunship is even there until after it opens fire. Two things are clear: They didn't hear or see it initially.

Or they didn't pay it any mind since it's so common and they thought they had nothing to fear.

[Rhinox]

Would you like me to do some ballistics math to determine exactly how much straight line distance there was between the helicopter and the ground, from the time in which the shots were fired until they struck their intended targets?

If you knew anything about what you were talking about you'd realize that that Apache was REALLY high based on that fact alone.

Please do. tell me the exact distance.

Have you flown an Apache in the past 5 years?

I fly one every day to and from work.

[*Shinzon*]

Or they didn't pay it any mind since it's so common and they thought they had nothing to fear.

That too.

[Pirian]

How fucking stupid does that mean they think the arab people are though?

If i was trying to shoot something down via ambush there is no way in hell I'd setup a rocket launcher right in front of the machine gun turret aimed at my head. The entire thing seems to assume that random people on the street can load and aim a rocket launcher faster with deadly accuracy on an inaccurate weapon than a bunch of marines with twitchy trigger fingers?
Before the first shots were fired was a prime time to ensure that there was even a gun or grenade on them. When i was watching the video i was surprised to see them shoot so quickly when a few more seconds and a zoom in while they had nothing nearby to shoot at would have confirmed everything.

It sounds like you are contradicting your first sentence with your 3rd sentence here. Wouldn't that make the soldiers think the "arab people" are smart, precisely because they are able to do this?

I don't know what point you are trying to argue here. I simply made an analogy of people running from soldiers are admitting guilt is, for arguments sake, the same as how a punk running from the cops is admitting guilt.

I was not saying the soldiers were justified.
I was not saying the soldiers were not justified.

[altwight]

This is the main reason why I refuse to join any military branch in our shitty ass hypocritical country.

Yea America sucks. So does everything else. inb4 cia

[archibaldcrane]

Since noone replied to this and they're really concerned about the audibility of a helicopter for some reason, I'm curious as to what people think:

Does anyone in this thread actually believe that the casually strolling people that got shot by the helicopter were really shooting at U.S. soldiers not 10 minutes prior?

[Rhinox]

I'm done arguing with the modern warfare gamefags.

shit will just be brushed under the rug starting tomorrow anyway since none of the talking heads are talking about it and we will continue living in the post 9/11 AMERICA FUCK YEAH mentality.

[Raivyn]

Which people and what guns? Be specific, the investigation found that both 'guns' were actually 2 different sets of cameras which would explain why the people in the video who were gunned down did not scurry around or seem to be hiding anything.

I'm sorry - if you do not see at least one AK 47 at 3:42-3:46 then there is a problem.

[Elvis]

I'm sorry - if you do not see at least one AK 47 at 3:42-3:46 then there is a problem.

Look here:

According to U.S. officials, the pilots arrived at the scene to find a group of men approaching the fight with what looked to be AK-47s slung over their shoulders and at least one rocket-propelled grenade.

A military investigation later concluded that what was thought to be an RPG was really a long-range photography lens; likewise, the camera looked like an AK-47.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_iraq_shooting

I am being sincere here. What guns are you talking about? According to the investigation, both sets of guns were NOT GUNS.

Now if you mean, what LOOKED LIKE - then I may budge a bit. I also thought they looked a bit like guns. The telescope looked like a bazooka I thought. However, I saw no AK-47. Maybe I need to watch again.

All in all, I believe after 6 pages that the force was preemptive and NOT a 'fire fight'. It was both excessive and fucking retarded. Moreover, that 'tone' is exemplified by the commentary of some of the soldiers.

[Raivyn]

Since noone replied to this and they're really concerned about the audibility of a helicopter for some reason, I'm curious as to what people think:

There were operations going on somewhere within a mile of their location and they have weapons. I think it is likely that they were returning from or going to join a part of the engagement.

[Mizango]

I'm done arguing with the modern warfare gamefags.

Pretty much. PS3 has turned many of the youth into mini E-Petraeus'. Cant tell these niggas shit, god forbid it happens to us, then its a fucking outrage.

[Mizango]

I mean who cares, they're just Muslims.

[archibaldcrane]

There were operations going on somewhere within a mile of their location and they have weapons. I think it is likely that they were returning from or going to join a part of the engagement.

Again, people carry AK-47s around in Iraq all the time - it's an extremely common weapon there. Having one does not = insurgent by -any means whatsoever-.

[Elvis]

There were operations going on somewhere within a mile of their location and they have weapons. I think it is likely that they were returning from or going to join a part of the engagement.

Who is they??

[Mojo]

I'm not saying I think the people in the video were engaged in a fire fight, I'm just saying it's a lot easier to critically review someone when you've never been in that situation. Someone else pointed it out but helicopters don't just fly around randomly looking for insurgents. They were called in for a reason. It's easy to tell one of them has a camera in the video but that's because you know already that some of them are journalists. The 3:40 part of the video doesn't look like a camera to me, but maybe it's a tripod. Either way, it's one of those situations where you either shoot first or you get shot. That's just how Iraq is. If you've been called in looking for men with weapons and you see someone that is bearing something that looks like a gun, are you going to stop and try to figure out whether it's actually a gun or a tripod first?

I think the comments the soldiers make are tasteless, but typical. If you've actually sat down and spoken with vets and ask about some of the things the ones who go into combat experience, you might understand it a bit better.

[archibaldcrane]

I'm sorry - if you do not see at least one AK 47 at 3:42-3:46 then there is a problem.

Keep watching those guys. Seeing him pick his "long black thing" up reminds me of one thing.

A person picking up an extended tripod with a camera on top - the way he lifts it at about 3:57 reminds me of that exact move.

That's what it looks like to me more than a weapon - but I would not blame someone for thinking it is a weapon from that distance.

[Elvis]

Either way, it's one of those situations where you either shoot first or you get shot.

No, it was not. They took the time to decide whether to shoot first and the people down there did not scurry around, getting ready to shoot.

That being said, you're right about experience and stuff. It's easy for me to criticize.

However, at the same time - we can all levy REASONABLE criticism without having had first-hand experience.

So when I repeatedly ask people why the soldiers fired on everything, like the van, and the people helping the crawling dying man - and get no response - I think that's a reasonable criticism/question.

And 'fire fight' obviously has a definition. So what is it? I'm serious, what is it?

[*Shinzon*]

Since noone replied to this and they're really concerned about the audibility of a helicopter for some reason, I'm curious as to what people think:

I think what we've established is that the gunship was called in to address gun fire from an unspecified location in the vicinity of where this apache was deployed to, and that there was some delay between them at which point they let their guard down or weren't part of the initial skirmish and unaware of US troops. At least in parts anyway, so no random people are not just shredding by US attack copters lol.