Feminists - A question.

[Senoska]

I hope I'm not the only one that sees Ivve seriously digging for reasons why to not make women sign for selective services. "We take more sick days," seriously?

[miokomioko]

I think maternal leave in itself is a major reason no one wants to hire or deal with women. I think I've heard it actually used as an excuse to why women generally make a little bit less, to make up for all the time they might (and can rightfully) take off of work.

Women also have to blame a lot of other women who abuse these privileges. Using the "period" to unnecessarily get out of things deserves a manly backhand to the cheek!

[Lucavi]

Ivve, I love you. My faith in humanity has been restored, if only for a moment. Continue posting, please.

[Cadsuane]

To be honest, I think a lot of people gain a negative perception of women while they are in the military, not before, because the armed forces as it is also tends to attract a particular type of woman.

What type is that?

Also because the way they handle women amongst them is totally fucking retarded. See: bathroom example. See: packing a shit-ton of dudes into one room while females get their own room. See: having to attend countless hours of gender sensitivity and sexual harassment meetings because someone somewhere in the world did something and now everyone has to hear it one more time. It's enough to make anyone rage after a while.

What do you think about the military not deploying women as close combat infantry, and lower physical requirements for women in the service? Also, if you think that current policies promulgate sexism and abuse more than they prevent it, what do you think the military should be doing instead to protect women from sexual abuse?

[archibaldcrane]

See: having to attend countless hours of gender sensitivity and sexual harassment meetings because someone somewhere in the world did something and now everyone has to hear it one more time.

>Implying that sexual assault and rape is not a continuing problem in the armed forces.


inb4 no women are raped they are all whores who ask for it/want it til they wake up the next morning

[Juriva]

Setting lurkmode on standby for a second - as a female who has studied women in cross-cultural perspectives through the lens of anthropology, looking back at the history of conscription shows that there is a long legacy of only drafting males (it's a matter of taking the "warriors" over the "caregivers"). That's not to say that there's no place that will draft both sexes, just that it's a precedent and a mindset that still holds today.

I agree with the statement that there is a school of feminism who would argue that war itself is a masculine exercise perpetuated by the patriarchy. One must remember, however, that feminism is not a black-and-white, one-faceted philosophy - there are many schools of thought in feminism that are hardly represented by the "stereotypical feminazi" which I think the OP had in mind when he made his post.

There could be a whole crop of feminists who are all for the conscription of both sexes, but are either relatively unknown, not very vocal, or focusing their energies on other issues more pressing to the times. My bet is that since females are able to enlist in the military, the "right" to be conscripted is nearly a non-issue to someone marching under the banner of equality before the law.

For the record, if the laws were changed and females were required to register for Selective Service, I wouldn't have a problem with signing up. The more likely scenario would be the dissolution of the Selective Service System since it is likely not to be used again.

One last thing:

so only people who can afford 25k+ a year for tuition (the rich) can go to college/not go to war?

WHY DO THEY ALWAYS SEND THE POOR

I now have this song stuck in my head, thank you. lol

[Kuya]

No women are raped, they are all whores who ask for it and want it till they wake up the next morning.

[Norellicus]

http://www.explosm.net/db/files/Comi...ns-HEYOOOO.png

[Cadsuane]

I agree with the statement that there is a school of feminism who would argue that war itself is a masculine exercise perpetuated by the patriarchy. One must remember, however, that feminism is not a black-and-white, one-faceted philosophy - there are many schools of thought in feminism that are hardly represented by the "stereotypical feminazi" which I think the OP had in mind when he made his post.

Oh my goodness someone actually read that post. Yes of course you're correct and I suppose I forgot to indicate that calling it just "feminism" as opposed to some school was me being facetious and trolling for replies. So, since we agree that the argument exists, I'm wondering whether we disagree on whether it's valid.

[Senoska]

http://i41.tinypic.com/2usfpky.jpg

[Ivve]

I hope I'm not the only one that sees Ivve seriously digging for reasons why to not make women sign for selective services. "We take more sick days," seriously?

You. Are. So. Fucking. Dumb. Seriously. Lol. I'm not saying that women should not register for the draft for that reason. Lrn2read. That is a military perception of women, and a reason why we are a) not valued/desired as highly as male enlistees and b) not respected as much as our male counterparts. That shit is just fact. Men look down on sickness and people who actually go to the doctor as weak. Most of them here are loathe to do more than take motrin, drink water, and change their socks when it comes to their health.

What type is that?

Bear in mind, I am not saying that all women in the military are like this. Just like the men, there are plenty of women who work hard, do their jobs well, etc. However, the military tends to attract some women who know they can skate by easily because they are women. They know they will never be held to the same rigorous standards as men, and they abuse the provisions that are built into the job that allow them to take time off. They don't have the sense of unity that a lot of men end up with, which makes sense in some ways but ends up setting them both apart from and often against the men in the unit. A lot of them truly truly truly embody an all-for-yourself attitude, which just doesn't work in this kind of setting.

There's also a whole subsection of dirty sluts within that category. Women who actually want to have the whole barracks run a train on them. I just don't even.

What do you think about the military not deploying women as close combat infantry, and lower physical requirements for women in the service? Also, if you think that current policies promulgate sexism and abuse more than they prevent it, what do you think the military should be doing instead to protect women from sexual abuse?

I have no problem with the physical requirements being different for women and men. I understand that men often have more muscle mass than women because our bodies are just made differently and have different hormones that affect things like that, so it's not a big deal. As long as all women are held to the same standard and not allowed to let shit slide because they're on their period or something.

I do think it's bullshit that women cannot be deployed as infantry, because if you read about any of the reasons why this is, most of them are pretty terrible. I think many of the same things were said about blacks in the military initially, so they made units that consisted completely of African-Americans, who then proved themselves many times over. Maybe that's the next step for us. The only way we can build trust and confidence in our ability is to show what we're capable of doing, so maybe that should be done. Integration is a process.

Some reasons for keeping us off the battlefield are actually somewhat legitimate (or at least not completely stupid) concerns. One of which is the fear that female POWs will be sexually abused, which is considered so unacceptable that we're not allowed to serve in some capacities to protect us from this horrible horrible fate. The problem is that realistically, anyone who is going into a war situation understands what can happen if they're captured. It would be pretty terrible to be apprehended and raped over and over. It would also be pretty terrible to be apprehended and have your fingernails ripped out, or be tortured to death. If I've accepted that this may happen to me, and I make the choice to go ahead in the face of that, I don't need a protective father figure condescendingly patting me on the shoulder and telling me it's too dangerous to go play with the boys. There needs to be some respect for our personal choices.

Another concern that I think is somewhat legitimate is how having women there will affect the men. It's been explained to me that the concern is basically that men will choose to intervene in situations to save the lives of women over men because they're just conditioned to be more protective of females. I can't really argue against that, no matter how silly it seems, because there is a lot of cultural conditioning that makes that pretty likely in a lot of cases. It's probably not even a conscious decision that would be made. The best answer I have is that they need to be conditioned to look at fellow soldiers as sexless as well as looking past race, religion, or any kind of bond of friendship they may have with one person in particular over everyone else. Does that make sense? I'm sure there was once an argument that white soldiers were more likely to come to the aid of other white soldiers, and that's why they couldn't fight with blacks and hispanics and whatever else, but that's just something that has to be overcome.

As far as protecting them from sexual abuse at home, on our own soil or in our own bases and boats, I really couldn't tell you what needs to happen. They already have their own quarters, and there are already rules in place against certain types of "high risk" behavior where sexual contact seems likely. The ramifications for sexual abuse are pretty fucking severe, too. People can be stripped of rank, sent to military prison, dishonorably discharged, etc. Claims of sexual misconduct are taken pretty seriously. There is still an attitude of "she was asking for it by dressing/acting in that manner," among many people, though. I really don't know how that should be or can be addressed.

>Implying that sexual assault and rape is not a continuing problem in the armed forces.

If you read it like that, you're dumb. My point is that if someone totally unrelated to you, who isn't even on the same base in some cases, does something retarded, you are going to be spending some time in awareness/sensitivity training. It doesn't matter how sensitive or aware you are, or that you yourself didn't do anything wrong.

The side of the military that I've seen is one that seems fond of punishing everyone if one person steps out of line. I think it's supposed to promote unity and make it so that people are more afraid of doing shit wrong because they don't want everyone to get pissed at them, but it simply does not always have the desired effect. I'm just saying that I see how it can foster a particular attitude toward women if some event happens that is totally unrelated to anything you've done, and now you and the rest of your unit (or fuck, everyone on base if you're in Okinawa) doesn't get libo or has a 9pm curfew. If it happens enough, you start wondering why women are so stupid that they're constantly being raped/assaulted, why women are so fragile, etc.

[Brutala]

Most feminisms are just making matters worse because they're feeding women a distorted picture of reality and convincing them that their position in society isn't their own god damn fault.

Here's reality: you got salad-eating skeletons and cake-eating cows, a pair of gradable opposites. Most men define "hot" somewhere between these two without taking into account muscle. As soon as a woman has some healthy muscle mass everyone immediately assumes she has a dick. Women who want to conform to the statistically dominant concept of "hot" exercise less than men, tend to gravitate towards less strength-based activities and tend to exercise only casually. Fat women were considered pretty in the Renaissance. Quite recently we had the same thing with freakishly skinny women. I wonder how long it'll take until women who are actually healthy are considered to also be pretty.

The self-confident and determined women are already pursuing sports careers and are bosses at workplaces etc. not giving a shit about some hysterical psychos afraid of sex who market so-called feminism to the women stupid enough to believe what culture teaches them without thinking about it. The women who believe that they are inferior are just helping uncivilized men perpetuate this nonsense and make things hard on the women who are competing with men socially and physically. Yes, women are weaker. Testoterone gives men an advantage in most types of physical work, but the difference isn't that huge. The problem isn't in the hormone difference. It's in the fact that it's socially not only acceptable, but desirable that women ding 20 without ever having done more than 10 pushups in one go in some pathetic excuse of a P.E. class. Noone's going to beat you or try to rape you if they can't get away with it without getting seriously injured in the process. Noone's going to pay you less for the same work if the rest of your gender isn't so passive to every kind of abuse. Grow some balls. Not literally though.

If the average woman wasn't afraid of keeping a healthy body, you wouldn't have wife-beaters and women wouldn't have lower wages. We may have all this modern shit, but the human race is still very uncivilized. If you're weak, you're just asking to get abused.

With the military it's really simple. We (I mean most of humanity generally) suck as a society. We fucked up our women to the point that they're afraid of exercise. If we demanded that they join the army there would be a rebellion so we stay the hell away from ideas like that. Besides, us guys like to believe that when we're stealing oil and setting up puppet governments, we're actually defending the fragile creatures we love. FFS we don't fight with swords now. A woman can do any infantry job almost as good as a man.

As for the facility problems, I agree that putting a few women into a male unit won't work, and neither will 50-50 as there would be too much tension. I don't see how an all-female unit would be inefficient in any way though.

[Ivve]

As for the facility problems, I agree that putting a few women into a male unit won't work, and neither will 50-50 as there would be too much tension. I don't see how an all-female unit would be inefficient in any way though.

This is perhaps the only thing I even understand out of what you said, but I agree with it.

[Kuya]

Oh man, just think of all the lesbian sex in an all female unit.

[Brutala]

Just like they don't let gay men into the army, they shouldn't allow gay women. It's too unpractical. You can't make an all-gay unit of one gender for obvious reasons. You can't put a gay woman with men because she'll get raped regardless of not loving the cock. A gay guy in a female unit might work maybe, but idk. I think gays will just have to wait until humanity is a bit more civilized. If there's still wars then.

[aduidarnenye]

I tried to dread this entire thread, I really did, but I couldn't wrap my head around the fact that guys in the US need to register for the draft at all still.

You really need to register for it to go to college? What other reasons cause you to need to register for it? What reasons would cause you to not have to register for it?

I am completely baffled and bewildered that there is still draft registration in the US. I wonder if Canada has anything like that currently. I have no idea.

Also, I'm female and currently applying to the Canadian navy to be an officer. They seem to be heavily recruiting women for all the branches of the military. At least I see a lot of advertisements and such directed at women. I've not made it in yet and there is always a possibility I will not make it, but the recruiters practically tripped over themselves trying to help me when I walked in the door with my application.

[Cadsuane]

I wonder if Canada has anything like that currently.

No, we don't.

[Draylo]

I tried to dread this entire thread, I really did, but I couldn't wrap my head around the fact that guys in the US need to register for the draft at all still.

You really need to register for it to go to college? What other reasons cause you to need to register for it? What reasons would cause you to not have to register for it?

I am completely baffled and bewildered that there is still draft registration in the US. I wonder if Canada has anything like that currently. I have no idea.

Also, I'm female and currently applying to the Canadian navy to be an officer. They seem to be heavily recruiting women for all the branches of the military. At least I see a lot of advertisements and such directed at women. I've not made it in yet and there is always a possibility I will not make it, but the recruiters practically tripped over themselves trying to help me when I walked in the door with my application.

Not to attend college but to recieve financial aid. When I was *forced* to sign up as well due to financial aid I was wondering the same thing as the OP. I think it's really retarded but a lot of these standards are set in a lot of places in life. Women have it easier if you ask me. Not just due to this issue but a lot of other reasons.

[Stumblingdrunk]

If the average woman wasn't afraid of keeping a healthy body, you wouldn't have wife-beaters and women wouldn't have lower wages. We may have all this modern shit, but the human race is still very uncivilized. If you're weak, you're just asking to get abused.

Congrats on solving the domestic violence issue, this is pure genius.

[Ivve]

I tried to dread this entire thread, I really did, but I couldn't wrap my head around the fact that guys in the US need to register for the draft at all still.

You really need to register for it to go to college? What other reasons cause you to need to register for it? What reasons would cause you to not have to register for it?

I am completely baffled and bewildered that there is still draft registration in the US. I wonder if Canada has anything like that currently. I have no idea.

Also, I'm female and currently applying to the Canadian navy to be an officer. They seem to be heavily recruiting women for all the branches of the military. At least I see a lot of advertisements and such directed at women. I've not made it in yet and there is always a possibility I will not make it, but the recruiters practically tripped over themselves trying to help me when I walked in the door with my application.

They need the diversity.