Final Fantasy XIV Score Discussion

[Kirb]

To a degree, that's true.

For example, Far Cry 1 and Far Cry 2. Many people bought Far Cry 2 expecting something at least in the same general ballpark. Instead, they got something completely and utterly different, and most people wondered why they had called it Far Cry 2 at all. It left a bitter taste in a lot of people's mouths.

But with FFXII, I can't honestly say that I felt the same. It was still undeniably Final Fantasy to me and didn't affect my view of the game, and by the general critical reception of the game, I don't think it had much of an effect on too many people. At that point I think it's simply subjective on what you personally expect from the series.

[Kachi]

FFXII, often lauded as RPG/game of the year in 2006 was a disappointment?
what?

Whether or not you think XII deserves to be called XII is your opinion, but seeing as it actually is XII and not Tactics or Ivalice Adventure, its simply SE saying 'your opinion is wrong'.
Whatever qualifies it as a numeric FF to them clearly isn't what you considered since it still is. And what that truly is may be a mystery. There is no formula or definition that says 'this is true FF, and that is not'. All we can pick at are trends and traditions... but many of them have steadily been broken.

Same goes with people who believe that XI and XIV aren't part of the main FF lineage simply because their online. Sure they can be called by different names. But look closely. Every single FF could have gone by a different name too.

And if most people agree with you, it doesn't mean they're right. They've just expected too much from a different FF.

Sigh. It's not about "deserving." You say, "What's in a name?" Meanwhile, the Montague's and Capulet's kill for it. All I'm saying is that it matters. I wouldn't have called it XII if I were trying to be genuine to my fans, but if I wanted to move units, that's exactly what I'd call it. And no, I'm not saying that they only called it XII to sell it. I'm just saying that that's what I'd do.

And it was a disappointment to its fans. By players it's the lowest rated Final Fantasy since the 8-bit days. Bad, no. Just less than what was expected, which is the definition of a disappointment.

XI was a reasonable departure from FF at first, but has since its release added a great deal of lore and story that makes it easily distinguishable as a FF title. Likewise, XIV will surely be seen as a FF title if for no reason other than its similarity to XI.

Could have=! should have, and I'm certainly not pointing to people agreeing with me as proof that I'm right. *Edit: unless you include the people with PhD's on the subject.

[Mayareira]

For the millionth fucking time...

Things evolve, things change. Back in the days technical limitations forced developers to whore Dragon Quest(yes, DING! The fucking shitty system you worship is actually a DQ RIPOFF) type battle systems. There were long victory fanfares because the game had to load the field screen, characters were fixed because the systems weren't able to handle proximity, summons played an important role because they looked beautiful and being static, they didn't consume too much resources. These were all acceptable in the past.

Today, they no longer are.

XII's battle system far exceeded any other game of the series. What makes it "less-FF"?

- The fact that the battle system actually adds multiple layers of strategy by implementing proximity?

- Deeper weapon/armor system?

- Details like weather effects actually having effects on certain weapon types?

- An extremely fluid battle system that doesn't rely on battle arena/field transitions?

. If I go to Burger King because I want a Whopper and they give me a Big Mac, I'm going to be disappointed.

You are going to McDonalds and asking for a hamburger menu of 1954. Sorry but they don't carry it anymore. You are free to be disappointed though.

marketing science psychology etc.

Why the hell would you want to name it differently? Because it didn't have the shitty, rigid, dumb battle system you were used to? Received better as in? It did sell pretty damn good, reviews were great, people loved it alot. It was mostly silly nostalgia freaks hated it because it didn't resemble the game that they were playing during the era they masturbated 10 times daily.

Boohoo we shouldn't call this cellphone a cellphone because it doesn't resemble the fucking Ericsson brick we were soooo in love with back in 90s.

[Kachi]

XII's battle system far exceeded any other game of the series. What makes it "less-FF"?

- The fact that the battle system actually adds multiple layers of strategy by implementing proximity?

- Deeper weapon/armor system?

- Details like weather effects actually having effects on certain weapon types?

- An extremely fluid battle system that doesn't rely on battle arena/field transitions?

See, those are pluses. Expectations are rarely based on pluses. If you're not even trying to look for the things that are absent in XII that were in other FF's, then of course you're not going to see what makes it LESS "FF".

Personally I wasn't crazy about the gameplay, but admittedly a lot of that on my part was due to how similar it played to FFXI and having been long bored with XI at that time. Also didn't care for the equipment/ability system, Quickenings, or that most of the game broke down to Charge, Haste and Berserk.

Anyway, it's already been said in this very page that the lack of traditional summons, the relatively scarce story and character development, and the difference in the score are some reasons. I might also add that the use of Ivalice and the general liberal use of new races, while not a bad thing, was fairly non-FF where FF worlds have traditionally been overrun with humans. I'm sure I could come up with other things, but it's not that important.

[Spira]

All I'm saying is that it matters. I wouldn't have called it XII if I were trying to be genuine to my fans, but if I wanted to move units, that's exactly what I'd call it. And no, I'm not saying that they only called it XII to sell it. I'm just saying that that's what I'd do.

You're partially right, but also partially wrong here. It matters what the name is, but thats all it is, a name. They've put the FF name on other franchises like Tactics and Crystal Chronicles. Could they have sold in part due to their name, yes.. but beyond that they can mostly stand on their own. The titular FF is just a way of introducing the games to players.

XII however, is not the case.

And it was a disappointment to its fans. By players it's the lowest rated Final Fantasy since the 8-bit days.

And where exactly are you pulling these ratings from? Your ass? If you're talking about fans, of the series and I know those fans, XII isn't close to the lowest at all. XI fares worse amongst the cheapos who can't pay for it and so dismiss it entirely. But of course, I don't have any statistical proof to back it up, but neither do you.

Bad, no. Just less than what was expected, which is the definition of a disappointment.

but you somehow assume your disappointment echoes far and wide. and that is not so.

XI was a reasonable departure from FF at first, but has since its release added a great deal of lore and story that makes it easily distinguishable as a FF title. Likewise, XIV will surely be seen as a FF title if for no reason other than its similarity to XI.

XIV already has crystals and chocobos, on top of the XI references/similarities, but much has yet to be revealed. XI, XII and XIII have all become their own and are distinctly recognizable as being FF, although in different ways.

In any case, what defines reasonable departure or not isn't up to gamers. Certain games shock us by their departure from the previous games, but they were clearly intending to do so. Otherwise they probably would have just remade the same game.

[Elcura]

Not by every single person, just on the whole.

Nonsense.

All I see is you QQ'ing cause things aren't staying the way you want them to. If Final Fantasy has been about anything traditionally, it's been about change. Sometimes those changes are good, sometimes they are bad.

You sound like you wanna be some FF expert, the authority on what is FF and what isn't. Let me tell you, such a thing doesn't exist. It's all some crazy delusion.

[Hyan]

If Final Fantasy has been about anything traditionally, it's been about change. Sometimes those changes are good, sometimes they are bad.

Ohooho, now we are getting to the point.

People "hate" XII because the changes are too drastic. But at the same time, the game is as FF as it can be, because that's what FF has been all about - change.

[Kachi]

Nonsense.

All I see is you QQ'ing cause things aren't staying the way you want them to. If Final Fantasy has been about anything traditionally, it's been about change. Sometimes those changes are good, sometimes they are bad.

You sound like you wanna be some FF expert, the authority on what is FF and what isn't. Let me tell you, such a thing doesn't exist. It's all some crazy delusion.

Who's QQing? I could honestly give a fuck. This is just a way for me to procrastinate banging out two more pages of my statistics paper.

I've given two major things that were absent from XII that were in every other FF, and two major things that were discernibly different which had been consistent up until that point. All -I- see are XII fanboys who can't accept some very neutral criticism, and not one legitimate argument against my points among a few failed attempts and a lot of trolling.

@Spira; I use the player ratings provided on gamefaqs, which in XII's case, last I checked were I think more than 4500 ratings, averaging 8.2, and following a normal curve, so by all accounts a good statistical measure that provides at the very least a relative basis to compare to the other FF titles, which can also be found on the site. But I'm not going to get into that any further because if I wanted to talk about statistics I'd just work on my paper.

So this thread could probably stand to get back to talking about the OST to XIV. Besides, I can't procrastinate much longer.

[Elcura]

Who's QQing? I could honestly give a fuck. This is just a way for me to procrastinate banging out two more pages of my statistics paper.

You mean you couldn't give a fuck, right?

I've given two major things that were absent from XII that were in every other FF, and two major things that were discernibly different which had been consistent up until that point. All -I- see are XII fanboys who can't accept some very neutral criticism, and not one legitimate argument against my points among a few failed attempts and a lot of trolling.

I can accept criticism of FFXII, I can accept criticism of FFXIII, but only when they're valid (in which case, I likely agree with it or acknowledge it). What are your "neutral criticisms"? I'm going with the summon thing and the character/story thing, cause that's all I see you've mentioned relating to game play.

The lack of classic summons? What is this shit? Summon systems change, FFX, FFXI, FFXII, FFXIII, each one has a different summon system. The only reason we had "classic" summons was because of the reason someone else said before; limitations. Once those limits were overcome, the summon system changed (hint: PS2. hint: FFX) and has progressively kept on changing. FFVII: CC had an old style summon system, can you guess why? Limits.

If FF could have had a radically different summon system each game, I bet they would have. You say XII's summon system was lacking something from other FF games, but I still don't know what this is. I mean, you fight summon, you get summon, you summon your summon, your summon kills shit, your summon goes away. What about this has changed in FFXII?

And the characters and story are there. The supposed lack of these elements is in your head and isn't valid. Whether you liked them or not is a different story - I don't care about that, but what is important is that these elements are there. FF1 sure did have some deep characters. Basically, I get the impression you didn't like FFXII's story and characters, which is a valid opinion to have (provided you back it up with some valid reasons) but it isn't a criticism everyone is going to fall in line with. Essentially, its a matter of taste, and I wouldn't accept someones personal taste as good criticism without them backing it up.

[Spira]

@Spira; I use the player ratings provided on gamefaqs, which in XII's case, last I checked were I think more than 4500 ratings, averaging 8.2, and following a normal curve, so by all accounts a good statistical measure that provides at the very least a relative basis to compare to the other FF titles, which can also be found on the site. But I'm not going to get into that any further because if I wanted to talk about statistics I'd just work on my paper.

That site isn't particularly reliable, but fine, if you're using that for ratings, just look at some other FFs. FF2, 3, 11 and a bunch of others score lower than XII. They don't have quite as many reviews, but it doesn't really matter since what the bigger number does is stabilize the average.

Take another source of rankings, like aggregator site GameRankings, and you'll see that XII is still a lot better than what you say it is.

In other words, you're assuming that your opinion of XII being the worst main lineage FF is shared by a majority of people.. and it certainly isn't.

XII is not my favourite FF, but neither is it my least favourite. Either way, I'd defend it against what is clearly baseless biasness against it.
Sure, you didn't like it as an FF, but you should really accept and realise your opinion is a minority

[Kachi]

Could= sarcasm.

As for summons, I'm not talking about implementation, but the actual summons. Basically all of the summons were new, and new summons are fine, but the lack of old summons was a less than welcome exclusion for many fans.

Btw, I am basing my criticisms on many players' opinions and reviews, not just my own.

As for the story and character development, Vaan and Penelo could have easily been excluded from the game, and the story was generally too short and spread out in a world too large. I don't even feel I need to comment on the story itself-- the simple relative lack of it was a very large departure from the FF norm.

Kind of strange that you would bring up FF1's lack of character depth, considering that was largely due to the same issue that you harped on in defense of the summoning system-- development limitations. A lack of consistency in arguments tends to cast skepticism on one's objectivity, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

[Kachi]

That site isn't particularly reliable, but fine, if you're using that for ratings, just look at some other FFs. FF2, 3, 11 and a bunch of others score lower than XII. They don't have quite as many reviews, but it doesn't really matter since what the bigger number does is stabilize the average.

Take another source of rankings, like aggregator site GameRankings, and you'll see that XII is still a lot better than what you say it is.

In other words, you're assuming that your opinion of XII being the worst main lineage FF is shared by a majority of people.. and it certainly isn't.
XII is not my favourite FF, but neither is it my least favourite. Either way, I'd defend it against what is clearly baseless biasness against it.
Sure, you didn't like it as an FF, but you should really accept and realise your opinion is a minority

Uh, it IS fairly reliable. You can't just say it's not, lol. Not how statistics work.

I believe I mentioned that it was the worst received -recently- and I don't consider 2 or 3 recent. XI I wouldn't count because there are very few ratings, most of the players don't consult the site, and it's not even in the same genre. As for a "bunch of others"... name one. I'm pretty sure those were the only ones.

GameRankings is far LESS reliable because it collects from a small number of "reviewers" and not regular players. Considering that reviewers are essentially just players and hardly any more qualified to offer an opinion than most players, are often biased by financial issues, often don't even fully play the game-- there are a number of reasons why the data is far less valid.

Like I said, it's a good game, and being the "worst recent FF" is hardly cause for shame. However, it's not merely my opinion, and I think I've sufficiently explained why. I simply think had it been marketed as something else, it would have been received better because it would not have disappointed certain expectations. I don't think it's an issue of quality.

[Elcura]

Could= sarcasm.

Sure.

As for summons, I'm not talking about implementation, but the actual summons. Basically all of the summons were new, and new summons are fine, but the lack of old summons was a less than welcome exclusion for many fans.

This makes your so-called criticism even less valid. In your mind, this is a valid criticism people should take notice of? I feel stupid for even bringing this up...

As for the story and character development, Vaan and Penelo could have easily been excluded from the game, and the story was generally too short and spread out in a world too large. I don't even feel I need to comment on the story itself-- the simple relative lack of it was a very large departure from the FF norm.

Like I said, the lack of story is in your head. There is a lot of story in the game, but of course if you ignore it you'll never know it. All FF games have stories spread out in large worlds, FFXII is no different in that regard and all FF games have characters that could have been excluded easily (hell, FFVII had two characters you didn't need to recruit). I'm not saying it's a good thing, but it certainly isn't a large departure from the "FF norm". Their involvement in the story was just about the same as other "throwaway" characters in other FF games, difference being you see the game through their perspective.

Kind of strange that you would bring up FF1's lack of character depth, considering that was largely due to the same issue that you harped on in defense of the summoning system-- development limitations. A lack of consistency in arguments tends to cast skepticism on one's objectivity, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

It's strange because it doesn't actually mean anything. You're reading too much into it.

[Spira]

By players it's the lowest rated Final Fantasy since the 8-bit days.

I believe I mentioned that it was the worst received -recently- and I don't consider 2 or 3 recent. XI I wouldn't count because there are very few ratings, most of the players don't consult the site, and it's not even in the same genre. As for a "bunch of others"... name one. I'm pretty sure those were the only ones.

Gee. First 16bit FF hit SNES in 1991. 19 years is really recent isn't it?
Backpedaling already?

Lotsa people still use gamefaqs for XI, mostly its boards, so there's no reason those ratings are not applicable. Genre isn't of import either. They're both main lineage FFs. That's what you're comparing - the whole package, not music, not genre, not gameplay separately.

And if XI isn't counted, then nothing before that is actually recent, because there have only been 3 new mainstream FF releases in the past 5 years. I bet you'll say remakes can't be counted either.

Basically, anything that doesn't support what you're trying to prove doesn't count.
You're just pulling things out of your ass.

Where XII stands doesn't matter. Your biases against the game are evident. We don't need you to preach what 'many people think'. We are as good as that many people. If you've nothing else to add then you should just gtfo.
This thread could do with more actual XIV OST discussion.

---

Anyone else think 20 could be used for the opening battle instance? It fits pretty well at the start and the end. The middle not so much, but then the battle duration there isn't fixed and is harder to sync.

[Elcura]

This thread could do with more actual XIV OST discussion.

Agreed, cause shit is getting retarded. On topic, the OST is really nice. I just wish there was some fade out on the songs, but overall I'm digging it.

[Kurp]

They might add fade outs for an actual OST retail release. These are just game files and in many cases are made to loop.

[Spira]

Well, since these tracks are the ones being used in the game itself, there really was no need to do it..
but when it gets an OST release you can bet on them fading out.

It seems they're playing around with battle tracks as is tho. I seriously don't think 15 will end up being the normal battle theme. Its just like with the gamescon alpha build, the battle theme used was 1B.. only time will tell tho

edit: anyone think that 38s opening quotes parts of FF7s boss theme.. but is especially similar to the final WotG trailer music?

[Elcura]

Yeah, I know why they aren't faded, I just wish they were. Can't remember who said it, but I am hearing a little LO in some of these tracks, though it could just be me relating it in a way that doesn't make sense.

[Charismatic]

He's right you know. XII DOES have a ton more ambient tracks than I-XI. As far as Uematsu is concerned, ambient tracks are few and far between. He's a melody/theme-focused composer. Town songs have themes with core melodies., even battle themes have to have some song.

Theme-focus = Ambiance
Are you guys really spouting out words without even knowing what you're saying?

[scottykai]

I know I'm kinda late, but can I get a PM ?