Shadow Lord BCNM Unlocked

[Tsuko_Asura]

Are you being serious right now? I honestly never would have guessed that you were this dumb.

[Therin]

Are you? Seriously.

*EDIT* I'm assuming you're throwing a fit because I used the word "defense" instead of "VIT", but you know that for the sake of the simplicity in this discussion, these two are related.

[Tsuko_Asura]

You don't even have to understand the inner workings of game mechanics to know why you're being an idiot.

Albion has 15 less base damage, and nearly doubles your WS frequency.

Edit: Alright, so your weapon rank drops a tad, what's your point? You still seem to be under the conclusion that dropping your base damage by less than 20% is going to nullify the benefits of a 40% DA.

[Byrthnoth]

Well, base damage and defense are unrelated issues, and I'm fairly sure that the critical hit boost (including Scourge aftermath) on Ragnarok was parsed around 10-15%? There was a rumor that it was something like 40% for a while, but I think that was debunked.

Also, I beg to differ. Scourge is entirely unimpressive. It's like a Catastrophe that doesn't drain HP. MND and CHR 40% as mods? Might as well be AGI and INT.

[Jazz]

You don't even have to understand the inner workings of game mechanics to know why you're being an idiot.

Albion has 15 less base damage, and nearly doubles your WS frequency.

Fully upgraded Albion with trial 223 is 93 dmg, and has a 466 delay.

I think You meant Salamand Sword with Trial 226 for dmg71, delay 480, and OAT(assumed a 6hit with +30 StoreTP as well), and compared it to Ragnarok with 86 base dmg.

Ragnarok with trial/augment gets +9 dmg, so it can now have dmg 95...not that I'm suggesting much of anything with that, Just saying.

[Therin]

Edit: Alright, so your weapon rank drops a tad, what's your point? You still seem to be under the conclusion that dropping your base damage by less than 20% is going to nullify the benefits of a 40% DA.

So your WS damage drops by at least 20% (honestly probably a LOT more than that, 24 base damage and all), and as does your melee damage (per swing), and when you take into account the 20 accuracy (which even on weaker mobs means less accuracy gear, so more Haste gear or better food) and the (potentially) 20% critical hit rate. . yeah, I'm saying all of that will nullify the benefits, just like Excalibur's extra stats/abilities nullify the double attack on Joyeuse. See what I did there? Brought the argument back around to what we were arguing about before.

The OAT great sword is certainly a great weapon (probably better than any other great sword we have access to right now) but I seriously am in disbelief that it's being compared to a fully upgraded Ragnarok.

Well, base damage and defense are unrelated issues, and I'm fairly sure that the critical hit boost (including Scourge aftermath) on Ragnarok was parsed around 10-15%? There was a rumor that it was something like 40% for a while, but I think that was debunked.

I parsed Scourge's aftermath bonus in Dynamis at like 8% or something, but considering all of the variables and whatnot that go on there, that's probably not accurate. 5-10% is likely, though. The weapon itself has another critical bonus which is probably also 5-10%. If you spam, that could be as much as +20% critical hit rate, and coupled with the occasional 2.5x proc that's nothing to scoff at.

Also, I beg to differ. Scourge is entirely unimpressive. It's like a Catastrophe that doesn't drain HP.

Exactly, which is why it's more impressive than people realize. I think people assume it's going to average 500 or something, but if you have the right weaponskill set it should still break 1k, and that's only slightly less than Spinning Slash if at all. Catastrophe certainly does.

Anyway, to put this back on topic, Nightfall is great but not as great as the OAT sword unless you really like idling for extended periods of time between each pull.

[Nightfyre]

Are you? Seriously.

*EDIT* I'm assuming you're throwing a fit because I used the word "defense" instead of "VIT", but you know that for the sake of the simplicity in this discussion, these two are related.

No, they're not. That's a pretty terrible

fSTR is the least significant portion of the base damage equation... You'd need the two to be very close to begin with for changes in fSTR to sway the results.

Also,

Honestly I hope you're not actually recommending Pizza with a two-handed relic.

As they say... shit is situational. Certainly not for general use though.

[Tsuko_Asura]

You have absolutely no idea what base damage does, and how it affects your damage output.

And you're giving 20 accuracy(/attack, for the sake of being counter-facetious) way more credit than it deserves.

[Therin]

No, they're not. That's a pretty terrible

Apologies, I don't use terms like "pDIF" and "fSTR" in every day conversation. The point is, your weaponskills are going to hit harder mobs for less, and the difference between a lower base damage weapon versus a higher base damage weapon becomes elongated when you move up to a more difficult mob (due to other things as well that we haven't even mentioned, like level correction). The word "defense" in the case of my original post was simply supposed to represent that, I didn't expect to have it taken so literal and for Tsuko to come dissect it with a scalpel.

[Tsuko_Asura]

Apologies, I don't use terms like "pDIF" and "fSTR" in every day conversation. The point is, your weaponskills are going to hit harder mobs for less, and the difference between a lower base damage weapon versus a higher base damage weapon becomes elongated when you move up to a more difficult mob (due to other things as well that we haven't even mentioned, like level correction). The word "defense" in the case of my original post was simply supposed to represent that, I didn't expect to have it taken so literal and dissect it with a scalpel.

No, no, no, and no.

Level correction effects pDIF, not base damage.

[pchan]

Honestly I hope you're not actually recommending Pizza with a two-handed relic.

On hnm ? of course. On MMJ camp ? of course. You don't cap => pizza. You can't possibly cap your acc and haste otherwise even on MMJ..

[Tsuko_Asura]

Did you really change your name to Pimpchan? <_<

[Red Demon Taoist]

You don't even have to understand the inner workings of game mechanics to know why you're being an idiot.
.

Can't you just copy/paste that for every comment you make? Would make your life easier?

[Jazz]

Doesn't SE intend to keep improving relics with more trials/augments or something similar later on?

I sure hope the +DMG augment isn't all the upgrade that the relics are getting, specially since there will probably be even better items for lv99 etc.

As for now, Ragnarok is still not that impressive for a relic IMO, and the Salamand GS with the OAT has a pretty big advantage in WS frequency...(though -20 accuracy vs Ragnarok)

[Therin]

Did you really change your name to Pimpchan? <_<

I'm more curious as to what is impressive about a limit chain 70 on an Imp. I'm guessing it was done with two people or something but the EXP amount seems low for that.

[Nameless]

So your WS damage drops by at least 20% (honestly probably a LOT more than that, 24 base damage and all)

It is about 34% if you do 24/71. However, after you take fstr and WSC into account, it is probably going to be 24/136 = 17.6%. And if the WS damage is only 17.6% higher, it won't beat the 30-40% higher WS rate. Not even if you count the 20 accuracy = 10% more WS.

And also, mob difficulty doesn't have anything to do with base damage. Mob difficulty goes up, you hit proportionally less with a high base damage weapon and with a low base damage weapon. Your example with MK is just that since the base damage is so low, if the mob's VIT get to a certain point, you are going to have negative fstr, which combine with lower base dmg, will give you 0. However, Salamand isn't low to that point that you will end up with (D+fstr)<0, so the rest is depended on your attack. Also, against harder mobs, you are not likely to hit that extra fstr cap on tp and on ws anyway.

Scourge isn't a bad WS, it has 3.00 ftp at 100% when spinning slash is only 2.50. However, the difference is that you don't get the 50% ratio bonus of spinning slash, which makes a huge difference on HNM, and is also the reason why Ground strike on HNM is stronger than Spiral Hell when Spiral Hell got the same modifier and higher ftp.

The only thing that Ragnarok has going for it on harder mob is the critical hit rate, which is very good for high def mobs. But you are taking a huge hit on WS damage as it is and spam it way less too. If anything, it is a close call like i have said.

Also, I said to use pizza for Salamand so the 20 acc isn't as noticable. Ragnarok users obviously need not eat the same food. I was just saying the acc factor is alot less important than it used to be since you are sacrificing significantly less attack on food for 40 acc compare to the sushi era.

Not trying to say Ragnarok is garbage. I was one of the biggest supporter of it before. But man, Salamand is no joke, none of those OAT weapons are other than mnk, sam and whatever else.

[Nightfyre]

I didn't expect to have it taken so literal and for Tsuko to come dissect it with a scalpel.

Welcome to BG.

[Tsuko_Asura]

Welcome to BG.

Fuck that, welcome to Knowing What You're Talking About™

[Nightfyre]

Fuck that, welcome to Knowing What You're Talking About™

lol

That too.

[Byrthnoth]

Well, the problem with Ragnarok is this:
* Ragnarok is a mediocre weapon to start with, whose high DoT (including crits) is countered by its lowered WS frequency and lack of good WS selection. It gets Scourge, which isn't as good as other GS WSs but does okay against low defense monsters and gives an additional crit hit boost. This would make you think that Ragnarok is good against high defense monsters, because of all the crits.
* Scourge's damage against high defense monsters sucks, while Ground Strike's is good.

Therefore, people who upgraded Ragnarok should be sending SE mail every day asking for a relic-refund so they can get one that doesn't blow.