Shadow Lord BCNM Unlocked

[Therin]

* Ragnarok is a mediocre weapon to start with, whose high DoT (including crits) is countered by its lowered WS frequency and lack of good WS selection. It gets Scourge, which isn't as good as other GS WSs but does okay against low defense monsters and gives an additional crit hit boost. This would make you think that Ragnarok is good against high defense monsters, because of all the crits.
* Scourge's damage against high defense monsters sucks, while Ground Strike's is good.

Actually Ragnarok's WS frequency is just as good as any 6-hit Naglering or Algol build if you're using a 7-hit build (believe it's Brutal, Rajas, Rose Strap, Askar and /SAM to attain a relatively easy-to-get 7-hit with Ragnarok). True Scourge is somewhat less powerful than Spinning Slash, but I don't see why it's being compared to Ground Strike at all, since that WS is absolutely horrendous unless it's at 300%, and you shouldn't that much TP that often anyway unless you're doing the whole /THF SA thing (which you can still do with Ragnarok).

Ragnarok's main problem is that it isn't an Apocalypse. While it's a great weapon, DRK has access to two relics and the other one is just plain better. Catastrophe's aftermath drains HP and gives you Haste, and Ragnarok's gives you a relatively small critical bonus. It's really not accurate to say that Ragnarok is a bad weapon, just that it isn't as good as the other option.

[Nightfyre]

Actually Ragnarok's WS frequency is just as good as any 6-hit Naglering or Algol build if you're using a 7-hit build

No it's not.

[ronin sparthos]

Gswd is as much a bastardized weapon class as throwing weapons. SE simply sees both as being abandoned territories they could care less to improve upon.

[Therin]

No it's not.

Eh? 193.95 effective delay on the Ragnarok with 55% Haste (2x March, spell, 20% in gear) and 225.45 effective delay on the Naglering. That's 22.62 seconds to 100% TP with the Ragnarok and 22.54 seconds on the Naglering, so less than 1 tenth of a second difference (and you're getting an extra melee swing in that time, too).

You're right on the Algol since it has slightly less delay but Ragnarok is pretty much equal with Naglering to 100% while dealing more damage on the way.

*EDIT* With Hasso active, 17.59 seconds with Ragnarok and 17.53 seconds with Naglering; even less difference.

[Jazz]

Yes, the difference in seconds to 100% TP does get smaller between Ragnarok's 7hit and Naglering's 6hit the more haste you have. Same is true for a 7hit with 444 delay vs a Naglering 6hit with 501 delay.

Example: a 7 hit with 444 delay (Martial, subduer, Nightfall etc. and I'm not really comparing these weapons, just listing since they're 444 delay etc.) Vs. a 6 hit with 501 delay (Naglering)....Naglering here will get to 100% TP 1.4 sec. faster than the 7hit with 444 delay with only 17% haste, but with both weapons having 42% haste, Naglering 6hit will get to 100% TP only 0.9 sec. faster than the 7hit with 444 delay, and so on... Naglering is still faster but the difference in seconds goes to less than a second the more haste you have, thus they get to 100% TP at "about" same time. (Also, Meditate and Absorb-TP exist too...)

Gswd is as much a bastardized weapon class as throwing weapons. SE simply sees both as being abandoned territories they could care less to improve upon.

It's true no job has GS as their A+ weapon, there is no GS skill earring, there is no GS mythic, no GS nyzul WS etc.(DRK is the job that gets to use GS more, but Scythe is really better for most stuff usually...)

I find it ironic that even though it seems they could care less about GS or whatever...you still see them GMs carrying a GS on their backs.

[Shinryuu]

Yes, the difference in seconds to 100% TP does get smaller between Ragnarok's 7hit and Naglering's 6hit the more haste you have. Same is true for a 7hit with 444 delay vs a Naglering 6hit with 501 delay.

The percentual difference remains the same, which is all that matters. What is a factor, however, is your hitrate and DA rate (when comparing a 7-hit to a 6-hit, anyway).

[AoshiZ]

I'm a big fan of Ragnarok. I have yet to see an amazing crit build with it or solid numbers about the critical hit rate bonus. But lets just assume some numbers so we can talk about potential against high def mobs.

Ragnarok Innate bonus 5%
Scourge Bonus 5%
Claymore Grip 3%
Zahak's Mail 3%

Dex Pieces
Hachiryu Kote +10
Byakko Pants +15
Thunder Rings +10
Maats Cap +7
Other stuff added accordingly to try and get Ddex to 20%+ Crit (5 from base?)

Merits 4%

So we have 40% crit rate alone.

Now lets continue with some Cor and Smn buffs!
Cor average 10%?
Smn 12%+?

That puts us at 62%+?

Slap on that hyrdra tiara for 5% crit bonus?

Final max 67%+ Critical hits?

I think that sounds pretty good in some occasions were the defense is so high that +1 in pDIF would be massive.

Addition:
I was talking about a Warrior Ragnarok crit build btw... since double attacking works well even though you have shit haste%

[Darkmagi]

Yeah... no. Haste> crit rate.

[Nameless]

It needs 30 stp to reach 7 hit, so it is not an easy 7 hit like you said. It has 431 delay not 444.

[AoshiZ]

Yeah... no. Haste> crit rate.

You run on haste build on things like ToAU Kings where you hit for 10 damage with 800 attack?

I'll admit haste is great speaking from experience with my 24% haste build with 95% accuracy eating Meat on colibri... but I'd beg to differ on some high defense enemies

[Darkmagi]

Yes because hitting faster means WSing more often, which adds far more damage than increasing your damage/hit for your tp phase would.

[AoshiZ]

Yes because hitting faster means WSing more often, which adds far more damage than increasing your damage/hit for your tp phase would.

Thats the argument of Melee Dot versus Weaponskill damage. If you're counting on WS damage being alot. Too bad on Gurf SA Spinning slash only does like 300. Swinging fast also feeds TP. Generally the tradeoff is that you're doing enough damage to make it worth it. Which is the reason why people don't like kraken clubs hitting their NMs

[Jazz]

I'm a big fan of Ragnarok. I have yet to see an amazing crit build with it

Don't use Claymore Grip for Ragnarok, you need Rose strap(and Rajas + Aurum body or Carbonara) in there as part of your 7 hit setup. (Need 30 StoreTP.)

Haste and StoreTP gear(if you need for X-hit build) > crit and dex gear. (Only thing that should be better is accuracy and only "if you need it.")

It needs 30 stp to reach 7 hit, so it is not an easy 7 hit like you said. It has 431 delay not 444.

I never said Ragnarok had 444 delay...

Please read:

Yes, the difference in seconds to 100% TP does get smaller between Ragnarok's 7hit and Naglering's 6hit the more haste you have. Same is true for a 7hit with 444 delay vs a Naglering 6hit with 501 delay.

I didn't say Ragnarok had 444 delay, just that the difference in seconds to 100% TP between 501 delay 6hit and a 444 delay 7hit gets smaller with haste too, just like the difference in Ragnarok's 7hit VS naglering's 6hit. I do know that you need 28 storeTP for TP and 21 for WS or 27 storeTP for TP and 26 StoreTP for ws for a 7hit with 444 delay, and that Ragnarok is 431 delay and you need +30StoreTP for Ragnarok's 7hit because of the lower delay... though Ragnarok has +20 accuracy, so it may not sacrifice THAT much, in fact, I think Ragnarok users should try to 7hit if they can...it's Ragnarok's best setup because of the increase in WS frequency IMO.

At this point, I'm not even really comparing it to other weapons, just for the weapon itself...I think you should aim for a 7hit if you have Ragnarok.

[Nameless]

not you

[Jazz]

ok. :D

[Tsuko_Asura]

You run on haste build on things like ToAU Kings where you hit for 10 damage with 800 attack?

I'll admit haste is great speaking from experience with my 24% haste build with 95% accuracy eating Meat on colibri... but I'd beg to differ on some high defense enemies

You people are priceless.

[toqabowl]

so... how bout that BC??

[Therin]

It needs 30 stp to reach 7 hit, so it is not an easy 7 hit like you said. It has 431 delay not 444.

Askar (5), Rose (4), Brutal (1), Rajas (5), /SAM (15) is a pretty easy 7-hit. Doesn't require anything tricky like Aurum, White Tathlum, Carbonara, or Moogle hat.

[Jazz]

Askar (5), Rose (4), Brutal (1), Rajas (5), /SAM (15) is a pretty easy 7-hit. Doesn't require anything tricky like Aurum, White Tathlum, Carbonara, or Moogle hat.

Aurum body or Carbonara would be better than the Askar body IMO though. (Even with Ragnarok's +20 acc, though of course "shit's situational" ...depends on what you're fighting etc. etc.)

But this really has nothing to do with the Shadow Lord BCNM. I think I'll leave it at that...

[Tsuko_Asura]

Carbonara? Are you serious? I feel like everyone's massively overestimating GS Acc. Even with the +20 Acc on the relic weapon and essentially perfect gear, you're looking at almost exactly 400 Acc before food. That's not even enough to cap at birds.