Shadow Lord BCNM Unlocked

[Tsuko_Asura]

Yay, parses!

[Nightfyre]

Stacking attack has diminishing returns as your pDIF increases past a certain point. If you haven't hit that point then it is still viable.

Uhh... wha? Shit has diminishing returns. Period. Only way it'd have increasing returns would be the point where it takes you from always hitting for 0 to occasionally hitting for 1+. Viability varies but rule 1 is you don't sacrifice haste to get attack.

Case and point. In dynamis Xarcabard where the demons have high defense, we tested a parse one time with two different groups. 1 with Double March double minuet versus Double Minuet and Chaos. The group with Double Minuet and Chaos pulled ahead. There are many factors such as gear and food but for the attack buff group to pull ahead is enough to say that its situational.

lolparse and lolwut... Too many unmentioned factors present here skewing the parse.

[AoshiZ]

Uhh... wha? Shit has diminishing returns. Period. Only way it'd have increasing returns would be the point where it takes you from always hitting for 0 to occasionally hitting for 1+. Viability varies but rule 1 is you don't sacrifice haste to get attack.



lolparse and lolwut... Too many unmentioned factors present here skewing the parse.

Of course like one most important factor is that the mobs die so fast that people don't get that many multiple rounds of attack. So individuals getting heavier attacks with the few rounds helps to increase their performance. Its situational.

Addition: I'm sorry but I didn't say it had increasing returns. Quoting me and assuming the opposite is where we are having conflict.

[Nightfyre]

Of course like one most important factor is that the mobs die so fast that people don't get that many multiple rounds of attack. So individuals getting heavier attacks with the few rounds helps to increase their performance. Its situational.

And attack doesn't have a form of overflow? lol. This shit's been done to death by people better at the math than I and certainly better at it than you; you're wrong, sorry.

Addition: I'm sorry but I didn't say it had increasing returns. Quoting me and assuming the opposite is where we are having conflict.

You said it has non-decreasing returns. There are three situations where this is true:

1) You're hitting for 0 and will hit for 0 even with x more attack. Static returns for 0 benefit.
2) My above situation, increasing returns.
3) Past the pDIF cap, static returns (0).

2 is the only situation that would warrant stacking haste over attack, were it to exist... I can only assume it's the situation you're talking about if you're seriously advocating stacking attack over haste. Anything else would be stupid.

owait...

[AoshiZ]

And attack doesn't have a form of overflow? lol. This shit's been done to death by people better at the math than I and certainly better at it than you; you're wrong, sorry.


You said it has non-decreasing returns. There are three situations where this is true:

1) You're hitting for 0 and will hit for 0 even with x more attack. Static returns for 0 benefit.
2) My above situation, increasing returns.
3) Past the pDIF cap, static returns (0).

2 is the only situation that would warrant stacking haste over attack, were it to exist... I can only assume it's the situation you're talking about if you're seriously advocating stacking attack over haste. Anything else would be stupid.

owait...

I never said Non-decreasing returns. I said: "Stacking attack has diminishing returns as your pDIF increases past a certain point. If you haven't hit that point then it is still viable."

Sorry i should have been more clear. The Stacking attack has More diminishing returns as your pDIF increases past a certain point. Does this help?

Let me ask you a question to get something clear since your arguments have been based off of misinterpretation of what i'm saying. Would you always choose double march over anything? Say march minuet with one bard?

[Nightfyre]

I never said Non-decreasing returns. I said: "Stacking attack has diminishing returns as your pDIF increases past a certain point. If you haven't hit that point then it is still viable."

Implies there is a point where it has non-diminishing returns.

Let me ask you a question to get something clear since your arguments have been based off of misinterpretation of what i'm saying. Would you always choose double march over anything? Say march minuet with one bard?

From a pure DPS standpoint? Pretty much.

[Therin]

In regards to the accuracy that was discussed before, my math comes out at 408 accuracy (as an Elvaan) without an accuracy body piece (Askar or Aurum is necessary for a 7-hit build), so obviously you're going to have to lose on 7-hit when fighting anything significant but on birds you should be capped.

For reference, I've parsed capped accuracy on birds on numerous occasions using Naglering and Askar and no accuracy food with Hasso probably 70% of the time, so Ragnarok should have no problem.

*EDIT* This is not including Hasso.

[Tsuko_Asura]

An Elvaan DRK/SAM with DEX merits is only going to have 403 Acc in perfect Acc-gear. I don't know where you're getting the additional accuracy from.

Ragnarok- 20 Acc
Fire Bomblet- 6 Acc
Augmented helm- 2 DEX
Ancient Torque- 9 Acc/4 DEX
Hollow Earring- 3 Acc/2 DEX
Aurum Cuirass- 8 DEX
Rajas Ring- 5 DEX
Cuchulain's Mantle- 5 Acc/4 DEX
Augmented pants- 7 Acc
Homam feet- 6 Acc

285 GS Skill, 70 base DEX(merits, for lols sake), 403.7 total Acc

[Khalil]

Then shit, I dunno.

[Therin]

An Elvaan DRK/SAM with DEX merits is only going to have 403 Acc in perfect Acc-gear. I don't know where you're getting the additional accuracy from.

What is "perfect accuracy gear"? I'm using:

Ragnarok
Fire Bomblet
Ace's Helm
Prudence Torque (Ancient would give more)
Assault Earring
Homam Manopolas
Toreador's Ring
Rajas Ring
Cuchulain's Mantle
Swift Belt
Homam Cosciales
Homam Gambieras

I'm assuming your difference is coming from Swift -> Speed, which is reasonable, but Hasso only a portion of the time will make up for not having the Swift Belt anyway.

*EDIT* Oh, you're not using Ace's. Figures. Nevermind then.

[Tsuko_Asura]

Exactly. If pizza/crab sushi means the difference between having to drop haste(Blitz, Ace's, Velo/Speed), you shouldn't be trying to use meat, especially when dealing with a weapon like GS.

[Meat]

And I'm still upset with you for quitting without consulting me.

i got tired of killing faf lol

[Tsuko_Asura]

i got tired of killing faf without you around ;-;

I know, I know, but we could have gotten through it together! All you had to do was talk to me! :/

[Therin]

Exactly. If pizza/crab sushi means the difference between having to drop haste(Blitz, Ace's, Velo/Speed), you shouldn't be trying to use meat, especially when dealing with a weapon like GS.

If I'm reading this right you're suggesting that 1% Haste and 5 Accuracy is better than 9 STR and ~84 Attack on a weapon which has a weaponskill that is essentially *only* modified by Attack?

On your set, the only change you'd need to make to cap accuracy is get rid of the hat and use Ace's, and since you only need 5 Accuracy to cap Haste the rest that you get from that Crab Sushi is irrelevant.

[Tsuko_Asura]

You seem to be overlooking the large heap of attack that you gain back by being able to drop the majority if your accuracy.

And, honestly, Scourge as a whole is a pointless WS to me. GS is only good when you're in a low-buff situation, yet Scourge demands a high-buff one. If you're in a position where Scourge will shine, you're in a position where scythe is better.

[Therin]

You seem to be overlooking the large heap of attack that you gain back by being able to drop the majority if your accuracy.

No I'm not, because on birds most of the additional Attack on your TP set won't make any noticeable different in melee damage (attacks, not WSes) and since one-handed WSes already have an accuracy bonus you're going to be using them in full Attack gear anyway.

And, honestly, Scourge as a whole is a pointless WS to me. GS is only good when you're in a low-buff situation, yet Scourge demands a high-buff one. If you're in a position where Scourge will shine, you're in a position where scythe is better.

Um. . okay, fine, we're not arguing about which weapon type is better, we're arguing details about Great Sword in a merit party. If you have a Ragnarok and you're not using Scourge you're wasting your potential.

[Byrthnoth]

He's talking about WS damage, where you already disregard your accuracy because GS WSs are 1-hit.

[Tsuko_Asura]

No I'm not, because on birds most of the additional Attack on your TP set won't make any noticeable different in melee damage (attacks, not WSes) and since one-handed WSes already have an accuracy bonus you're going to be using them in full Attack gear anyway.



Um. . okay, fine, we're not arguing about which weapon type is better, we're arguing details about Great Sword in a merit party. If you have a Ragnarok and you're not using Scourge you're wasting your potential.

We may as well be debating which staff is best for BLM to be meleeing with in a merit party. GS has no place in a merit party.

[Therin]

We may as well be debating which staff is best for BLM to be meleeing with in a merit party. GS has no place in a merit party.

You say that with no personal experience to back it up. Any intelligent DRK can still use a GS in the party and the party won't suffer a bit. Sure, it's not optimal (if every DRK wanted to be optimal they'd all have Apocalypses), but sometimes you don't need to be.

A GS DRK is actually very close in damage to a Scythe DRK in most situations if neither have relics (the difference in a merit party parse is like 32% to 35%). I'm a firm believer that a Ragnarok played correctly would beat any other non-Apocalypse Scythe.

[Tsuko_Asura]

You can have your experience. You already proved that you have no grasp on melee mechanics, and seem to be ignoring the fact that the OAT great sword is on par with, if not better than Ragnarok. With that in mind, how could you, for even a second, doubt that the OAT scythe would completely obliterate Ragnarok in a pDIF-friendly situation?