Jobs: hard to decide

[Draylo]

I honestly thought that was one of those generated speeches where you just plug in a word and it centers a random, page-long argument around it. lol.

Err, and I like you, so try not to be offended, but,



That's just dumb. Jobs are as complex as you make them.

Do you like me too?

Not really, BLU has far more complexity than a lot of other jobs. You need specific sets of gear to work the various aspects of BLU. Compared that to other jobs that only need like 3 to function normally, WS TP and perhaps idle.

[mdkuser]

The MNK/NIN bit confuses me too, but MNK/WAR is definitely on par with most 2-handers. Unfortunately, very few events allow for /WAR, but at least birds are one of them.

normally sam/war hasso+hagun will beat mnk/nin. it wont if the mnk uses counterstance( +5% dmg minimum normally its >+10% if you are solo on the mob) and use faith baghnaks since cure bombing is allowed ( +7% dmg compared to destroyers). Also war/sam with perdu+seigan does the same dmg as mnk/nin with destroyers ( from parses ). Its common misconception that 2Hander get tp faster: if 2 hander /seigan then SAM and WAR get TP faster than mnk, but drg and drk slower. if /hasso and /war SAM and WAR are faster, and mnk drk drg equalish.

[Yugl]

Offtopic: Imo on soloing Gungnir makes a very big difference mainly cuz of def down add effect.
Ontopic:
1. Is 295 base mp enough for BLU beside soloing?
2. I also wonder how can MNK/nin be better on dmg then sam/war on something harder
3. Is Spharai MNK has any chance to be allowed to put on some harder NM?
counter w/o counterstance with spharai with this http://www.ffxiah.com/item_sets.php?id=135431 set can go up to 34. counterstance is bad for something that can aoe physical dmg that goes through shadows or multihit.

Offtopic: What you think about this set http://www.ffxiah.com/item_sets.php?id=136043?

I was surprised to find that Galka truly does have a 295 MP Base (Elvaan is ~400MP). In that case, I would arrange your macros (Or spellcast if on PC) such that you cast spells in TP gear (Homam + Turban + Relic Body is mega MP) until you reach 295MP or are casting a spell where landing is important (Sleep spells and such). The good news is that FFXI revolves around MP recovery rather than max MP, so you shouldn't have a problem if you're rocking Signet/Auto-Refresh/Relic Body or Morrigan's body. You'll want to be extra careful with creating an aspir set (Magic Hammer with mega MND and MP drain with haste).

That's just dumb. Jobs are as complex as you make them.

But they don't get as complex as BLU in any respect.

Idle
Disseverment/Frenetic
TP (Savage Blade/Vorpal Blade/Expiation)
WS
Hysterric Barrage
Vertical Cleave SATA
Cannonball SATA
Firespit (MND/INT)
Eyes on Me (CHR)
Breath Set (HP)
Magic Hammer and Mind Blast (MND)
Regurgitation (INT?)
LV60 and less spells
PDT
Cure set
MDT
Utsusemi
Enmity for tanking

[Cadsuane]

normally sam/war hasso+hagun will beat mnk/nin. it wont if the mnk uses counterstance( +5% dmg minimum normally its >+10% if you are solo on the mob) and use faith baghnaks since cure bombing is allowed ( +7% dmg compared to destroyers). Also war/sam with perdu+seigan does the same dmg as mnk/nin with destroyers ( from parses ). Its common misconception that 2Hander get tp faster: if 2 hander /seigan then SAM and WAR get TP faster than mnk, but drg and drk slower. if /hasso and /war SAM and WAR are faster, and mnk drk drg equalish.

DRG on merited jump timers is much faster than DRK or WAR, arguably just as fast as SAM (barring a 5 hit with polearm), and certainly faster than MNK.

[Tsuko_Asura]

Do you like me too?

Not really, BLU has far more complexity than a lot of other jobs. You need specific sets of gear to work the various aspects of BLU. Compared that to other jobs that only need like 3 to function normally, WS TP and perhaps idle.

Magic damage reduction, physical damage reduction, idle, (Yuki/Gekko/ Kasha), Rana, Penta, polearm, great katana, enmity+, and Utsusemi

That's ten different gear sets for my SAM. I even bundled YGK together, because there's only 3-4 differences in equipment for each. Other than that, each set requires entirely different gear. I know plenty of mages who don't swap nearly as much as my melee job.

Like I said, jobs are as complex as you make them.

[Draylo]

I was surprised to find that Galka truly does have a 295 MP Base (Elvaan is ~400MP). In that case, I would arrange your macros (Or spellcast if on PC) such that you cast spells in TP gear (Homam + Turban + Relic Body is mega MP) until you reach 295MP or are casting a spell where landing is important (Sleep spells and such). The good news is that FFXI revolves around MP recovery rather than max MP, so you shouldn't have a problem if you're rocking Signet/Auto-Refresh/Relic Body or Morrigan's body. You'll want to be extra careful with creating an aspir set (Magic Hammer with mega MND and MP drain with haste).

Wow really? That is really low mp. I find that I rarely, if ever, spend all my MP that I am at the point of 0 mp. I always have some form of refresh (like ones listed above) and the things I use BLU for endgame don't require me to spam all mp to 0 (which is pretty silly realistically unless the situation calls for it). Soloing if you are planning imps, magic hammer is a very nice spell to use for mp recovery. I like to use, ontop of the obvious MND mod, macc in there as well for kiss and hammer where I can fit it in (aside from the haste and mnd/mab). Really he doesn't need to cast in TP gear, he shouldn't hit 0 mp or really come close to it in majority of end game activities.

Also as a side bonus, being Galka is nice for your breath builds heh.

[Yvonne]

Magic damage reduction, physical damage reduction, idle, (Yuki/Gekko/ Kasha), Rana, Penta, polearm, great katana, enmity+, and Utsusemi

That's ten different gear sets for my SAM. I even bundled YGK together, because there's only 3-4 differences in equipment for each. Other than that, each set requires entirely different gear. I know plenty of mages who don't swap nearly as much as my melee job.

Like I said, jobs are as complex as you make them.

And BLU doesn't have various and similar equipment sets? We might not have different weapons, but we sure have 100+ spells that we can play with, even if over a dozen of them seem to be staples already. There's a difference between a job where you do a countdown to a WS compared to a job that can literally direct the flow of battle. Obviously HNMs may say no, but most of the time, they're getting anally raped from behind anyway.

As for Magic Hammer, I have 0 Morrigan and can still pull off 190+ Hammers (No Convergence).

[Yugl]

The reason he should cast in TP gear for the first few spells is to knock off the MP. No point in wasting perfectly good MP.

Edit: BLU set listed beats Tsuko's SAM set and I didn't even include a Utsusemi set yet. I also bundled all of BLU's WSs too. Hell, let me update that list.

[Draylo]

Ah ok I see what you meant then.

BLU needs a lot of different gear sets to even function correctly... you bring some noob in all MP gear and expect him to deal much damage or do the many things that make blu versatile and he will fail. Bring a SAM with mediocre gear and he will already know his job, smack the mob for tp and ws or seigan TE when hate. BLU has to have specific gear sets in order to boost those spells to respectable levels, or in some cases to even make them work in the first place.

[Reiokyu]

Whenever acc can be a problem or high def Howling fist should be better. Also sometimes Ascetic Fury can do impressive dmg but howling fist is more avg (Ascetic is worth when doing Light imo).

Also on my ffxiah profil I like to make dream sets and MNk have access to some pwng set imo.
Idk if acc is a problem on MNK realy if you have those gear

http://www.ffxiah.com/item_sets.php?id=134981
TP set with 25% haste +81 acc +60att (counting dex and str)
http://www.ffxiah.com/item_sets.php?id=134985
Ws set with +110 acc +66att (counting dex and str)

You could probably make also a very potent on acc att and stats WS set for holwing on HNM.

Aye, I already know that switching to howling fist can yield benefits in high def/level situations. Switching ws's for the situation is something fairly basic for a fair bit of classes...save perhaps Y/G/K spam.

Can hit the +110 mark on accuracy, but still need to have focus for it up on my builds since I am indeed not even close to the dream builds put in there. Typically do not need that with pizza, and falls more within the realm of meat builds.

It all boils down to the saying that everything is situational. I tend to revolve my strategies around preparing ahead of time for the mobs that I am going to face, and adjust haste, accuracy, and attack accordingly.

[Villian]

I'm not sure about drg but with a good HMP build and clear mind T3 job trait with echo drops and antidotes, I can get 10k-11 exp per hour on blu w/o exp ring on imps.

[Atoreis]

Yvonne I completly agree with You. For example i had some ideas about what BLU can do on Salvage. For example ZR floor 3 mamools they have like 1,5k HP?
I wonder if BLU couldnt gaterher them all (-pdt, cocoon,actnic burst,diamoonhide,phalanyx II) and just kill with few AoE. There is AoE breath attack doing 1/3 hp Flying hip press this not divide by amount of target hitted (I think ) which on Galka with 1800 hp with af2 head and converance 5/5 is like 800 dmg AoE. Hip -> yawn -> mealstorm -> soporofic -> Hip and kill 30 mamols in like 40 sec. stun lock stupid frogs. Idk if pl know but BLU has a lot stun spells and Blitzstrahl for example can land like 5 sec stun. Frypan is 0,5 sec casting time Stunga. support job on ZR boss for example diamonhide, actnic burst, cure and still dmg with dissseverment (for poison idk if it can be poisoned tho) and maybe even some good magic dmg spell? I think it can be very good on doing quite rare or unique things just need to think. BUT I'm galka 295 mp is MAX MP ON GALKA 75 BLU/NIN NAKED WITHOUT MERITS. So I wonder if even with 375 with merits and all the refresh and probably I would go for this set for hMP http://www.ffxiah.com/item_sets.php?id=136475 I can go on BLU w/o holding myself? I can imagine on mobs from which i can drain MP maybe i will be ok but others?

[Yvonne]

I'm not sure about drg but with a good HMP build and clear mind T3 job trait with echo drops and antidotes, I can get 10k-11 exp per hour on blu w/o exp ring on imps.

I used to go from a stack of meds to just 4 echos over a span of an hour now. You only get better over time.

[Draylo]

Yvonne I completly agree with You. For example i had some ideas about what BLU can do on Salvage. For example ZR floor 3 mamools they have like 1,5k HP?
I wonder if BLU couldnt gaterher them all (-pdt, cocoon,actnic burst,diamoonhide,phalanyx II) and just kill with few AoE. There is AoE breath attack doing 1/3 hp Flying hip press this not divide by amount of target hitted (I think ) which on Galka with 1800 hp with af2 head and converance 5/5 is like 800 dmg AoE. Hip -> yawn -> mealstorm -> soporofic -> Hip and kill 30 mamols in like 40 sec. stun lock stupid frogs. Idk if pl know but BLU has a lot stun spells and Blitzstrahl for example can land like 5 sec stun. Frypan is 0,5 sec casting time Stunga. support job on ZR boss for example diamonhide, actnic burst, cure and still dmg with dissseverment (for poison idk if it can be poisoned tho) and maybe even some good magic dmg spell? I think it can be very good on doing quite rare or unique things just need to think. BUT I'm galka 295 mp is MAX MP ON GALKA 75 BLU/NIN NAKED WITHOUT MERITS. So I wonder if even with 375 with merits and all the refresh and probably I would go for this set for hMP http://www.ffxiah.com/item_sets.php?id=136475 I can go on BLU w/o holding myself? I can imagine on mobs from which i can drain MP maybe i will be ok but others?

In theory that might seem nice but it isn't always the case. Depending on that zone you won't have access to all your gear sometimes. Those spells you listed aren't usually particularly powerful (outside of random assaults where dmg is boosted a lot). The breath spell, while very good, is small directional AOE and mobs tend to spread out and circle a person when they have hate like that, so you would end up missing the majority of them. Blitzsrtahl isn't a very reliable stun either, you are better off spamming head butt and potentially frypan or temporal shift. Yes you will be fine on other mobs, like I said earlier there is rarely, if ever, a time during end game events where my BLU has 0 mp.

Edit: Woops just saw you meant hip press not heat breath.

[ronin sparthos]

Magic damage reduction, physical damage reduction, idle, (Yuki/Gekko/ Kasha), Rana, Penta, polearm, great katana, enmity+, and Utsusemi

That's ten different gear sets for my SAM. I even bundled YGK together, because there's only 3-4 differences in equipment for each. Other than that, each set requires entirely different gear. I know plenty of mages who don't swap nearly as much as my melee job.

Like I said, jobs are as complex as you make them.

You've completely missed the point.

Take the lowest common denominator SAM vs lowest common denominator BLU and you have a big difference in the learning curve. Common sense dictates SAM does damage but BLU? You have no such unification on how to be "the best", whatever that means.

New SAM: You have a weapon, some JA and you know you're going to hit the monster until it dies. You even get a Haste JA and the ability to create free TP if you skimp on gear, eat no food and overall not give a shit.

You'll suck but you'll never suck as much as a bad BLU. The job is simply more forgiving.

New BLU: You get a weapon, you've got tons of spells at your disposal and then because BLUs role isn't as regimented you have people that take the job in all sorts of directions however if you skip on gear levelling BLU you'll suffer in ways the new SAM will have Hasso/Seigan/2h acc to bypass.

BLU is one of those DD that can end up getting left behind a wyvern or automaton if you play poorly.

You're right in the sense that you can make any job as complex as you want but BLU comes out of the gate with more innate complexity and more chances to end up doing horribly. It doesn't help that you also need more party support (Refresh and Haste ideally) to do well.

[Onorgul]

Not that my extensive anecdotal experience has any place in this land of idealized mathematical modeling, but I rarely, if ever, had difficulty keeping pace with GK SAM/WAR as MNK/NIN in terms of TP gain unless Soboro was brought into the picture (note: before someone goes off on an irritating tangent about Soboro being "the best" [as of last week's secret meeting], I worked with an Amanomurakumo owner). I gained less TP per second, I won't dispute that, but the overall difference was actually pretty small and I could regularly renkei with my Samurai partner one way or another. The only thing that tended to slow me was recasting Utsusemi. For the record, double March and Haste spell, we had no Dancer or Corsair present. This is largely based on Salvage, referring to when we were both fully unlocked.

It's amazing how much stock you guys put into fairly nominal differences, though. The mob dies, hurrah. If it dies with a Hagun down its throat instead of a Tomoe up its arse, it really doesn't matter. It's nice to talk about "optimal" and all, but the real measure is "efficient," and any DD job played competently will be more than efficient for most situations. Those few situations that favor magical damage or ranged damage are where job choice for DPS makes a noteworthy difference.

[Tsuko_Asura]

You people are speaking as if the job with the most macros is going to win the race.. That's just silly. If one person has two-hundred very specific macros for their job, and another has two-hundred and ten, does that mean that the latter is leaps and bounds ahead of the former in terms of complexity? No, of course not. You could(and we all know that plenty do) play blue mage with very, very few major equipment swaps, just like every other job. Just because yours has the capacity to make use of a handful more doesn't mean its some sort of rubix cube. All jobs can be played simply, and all jobs can be played more aggressively.

And before anyone screams "bias!", this is my first legitimate melee class after a long, long line of mages, and I have to pay just as much attention on samurai as I did on any caster-job.

Edit in regard to Ronin: Are you really going to argue a job's difficulty based on the performance of a complete moron? I don't see how that's even remotely relevant.

[FailureMidgard]

And BLU doesn't have various and similar equipment sets? We might not have different weapons, but we sure have 100+ spells that we can play with, even if over a dozen of them seem to be staples already. There's a difference between a job where you do a countdown to a WS compared to a job that can literally direct the flow of battle. Obviously HNMs may say no, but most of the time, they're getting anally raped from behind anyway.

As for Magic Hammer, I have 0 Morrigan and can still pull off 190+ Hammers (No Convergence).

100+ spells? Right. I realize they are there, but it's inane to count them all. You know I -actually- had a Sam stoneskin macro setup at one point? I bet I used it more than you use your Power Attack setup.

Count what you use, on a semi regular basis. What you actually have up-to-date macros for. It's not 100, it's not anywhere near 100. But I have more functional sets than Tsuko even listed, and that's not counting the stupid ones including resist sets for every element, spirits within, cyclone, judgment, etc.


To everyone else-
Also, BLU gearsets are as simple as various WS sets, sorry, it's not some super complicated thing. Well, chances are most you arguing here couldn't even respond what's better if presented with a close to even gearchoice between 2 stats (str vs defense), but that's probably true of most melee as well. Point is, the complexity is very similar. Past that, once you get a few gearsets, the rest tend to be similar to one of those with a few small changes at best - it's just how it works out.

[FailureMidgard]

You've completely missed the point.

Take the lowest common denominator SAM vs lowest common denominator BLU and you have a big difference in the learning curve. Common sense dictates SAM does damage but BLU? You have no such unification on how to be "the best", whatever that means.

New SAM: You have a weapon, some JA and you know you're going to hit the monster until it dies. You even get a Haste JA and the ability to create free TP if you skimp on gear, eat no food and overall not give a shit.

You'll suck but you'll never suck as much as a bad BLU. The job is simply more forgiving.

New BLU: You get a weapon, you've got tons of spells at your disposal and then because BLUs role isn't as regimented you have people that take the job in all sorts of directions however if you skip on gear levelling BLU you'll suffer in ways the new SAM will have Hasso/Seigan/2h acc to bypass.

BLU is one of those DD that can end up getting left behind a wyvern or automaton if you play poorly.

You're right in the sense that you can make any job as complex as you want but BLU comes out of the gate with more innate complexity and more chances to end up doing horribly. It doesn't help that you also need more party support (Refresh and Haste ideally) to do well.

Fuck dude, on Sam I have to decide between like 100 Gkatanas, another 50 polearms, Ridill, Seiryu's Sword, Shigeto Bow+1, Lightning Bow+1, a warp cudgel, 100 other daggers and clubs. All you have to do is put on ANY SWORD and then go pick from 100 spells.

Stop over-complicating bullshit that isn't complicated. You don't choose between 100 spells because most of them suck donkey balls. You put on a fucking sword (which one is far less consequential than which weapon a Sam equips) and go spam 1 of ~6 spells and shit falls over. You don't even need to gearswap to solo an imp -with ease-. Put on your disseverment set and rotate disseverment, headbutt, frenetic rip and hysteric barrage all in 1 set of gear. That's basically the analogy you're making for sam.

Also, BLU needs less support. You need 1 rdm (if that?) to perform ok. A melee -needs- haste and marches to make it worth bringing.

Bad Sams are bad, bad blus are bad. Don't act like some shitty Sam that comes out having no idea what he's doing spamming 350 point gekkos is doing good damage or the least bit useful, because he isn't.

[Yvonne]

I wasn't aware that I had a Power Attack whatchama call it. Whatever I post on FFXIAH is for when people ask for gear sets. I clearly do not list everything on there just the fact that I do have a full time job and a career to consider than sit around on welfare all day.