Confused about bazaar "Tax"

[Pikarya]

I saw a guy single-handedly raise the price on Frost Lotus from 30g to 100g by buying it all up and reselling. It doesn't happen often, but the number of mules you'd need for that sort of thing with limited Auction sale space is prohibitive.

Theres a difference between RMT production and just a player making a buck/profit over gouging since he put his time into farming the items. In WoW I've seen people buy plenty of materials/etc. at ridiculous prices just because they were too "lazy" to go get them. IMO props to the seller, isn't that how a normal market should function? I mean if the player feels the price is ridiculous, just go farm it? lol

[Kalisa]

Theres a difference between RMT production and just a player making a buck/profit over gouging since he put his time into farming the items. In WoW I've seen people buy plenty of materials/etc. at ridiculous prices just because they were too "lazy" to go get them. IMO props to the seller, isn't that how a normal market should function? I mean if the player feels the price is ridiculous, just go farm it? lol

I see why you think price gouging never happens with a limitless market--when confronted with it you brush it off as "gg that's how the market should work." Different opinions I guess.

[joxerthemighty]

some people like to play the AH game: buy low sell high, buy out low quantities relist at higher prices.

if you have patience and don't mind auctions occasionally expiring you can get the lazy/uninformed people to pay RIDICULOUS prices. you can also get some slick deals from people trying to undercut like morons. The best was in AION where people would list things for less than what you can vendor them for...or when i bought a cloak in Warhammer for 20g and resold it for 700g...yeah that was a good day.

[Klaatu]

I sure as fuck hope that this game's economy is not going to be a detriment to overall game progress -__- I do NOT want to "work" in game in order to enjoy a little time off from working in real life

[Kaylia]

oops, wrong thread

[Pikarya]

Dynamis strike back...rofl.


But seriously,the whole thing feel wrong. I didn't like her character much, but she served nothing...it's a little annoying.

The 2nd half of the episode was pretty good. Lot of question answered, and Desmond was awesome in both world. Next week should be epic as well.

wat

[Kaylia]

wat

wrong thread obviously. I was hoping no one would see, it was edited 10 sec later.

[fantasticdan]

Has SE actually announced they don't want to do auction houses, or is that all just speculation?

[Kirb]

wat

Sounds like he was a bit...


*puts on shades*


Lost.

[Pikarya]

Has SE actually announced they don't want to do auction houses, or is that all just speculation?

Its speculation. 99.9% I'm going with is that it won't be implemented in Alpha since it has no use. It would take a decent chunk of a market of items to test. Something that will require steady servers and many players. I'm guessing if anything we can expect it during the later stages of beta.

[Kaylia]

Sounds like he was a bit...


*puts on shades*


Lost.

/clap.

[niwaar]

^ You want more Christmas of 2005 incidents?

What does wanting them to implement a "Jeuno/Whitegate" like tax have to do with Christmas 2005? RMT Christmas was a function of low IGE prices and idiots buying said gil. The tax system did a single thing ... forced every Bazaar outside to Battalia to get away from the tax.

All I was saying is drop the tax on top of the bazaar price as they did in XI. ie 1000gil (+100) or however it was put. XIV's tax system seems like it will be global to alleviate the "outside city walls" bazaars. I would hope that they make "no bazaar zones" or even a limit of bazaars in a certain area. In order to alleviate lag. Hell, the last thing we need in XIV is lag akin to Lower Jeuno AH lag.

if there is no AH, is there a way to at least globally search for items on sale and have the game give you coordinates/zone to go purchase the item? having to wander around hoping to find an AFKer with an item you want is pretty freaking terrible.

i realize this promotes having centralized meeting points in towns to make them feel "alive" but so does having an auction house. also the idea that i have to waste game time sitting around /yelling in global about what i've got hidden in my nooks and crannies for sale is just a huge step back.

make AH tax 15% and people will still use it over /afkvend0rmode. one word: convenience

That is the kicker with Bazaars in general. They are /afkvendormode in a nutshell. If they really wish to force the average player into staying logged in 24/7 or even buying a second account simply in order to sell their loot, I don't think things will work out very well in the long run.

[niwaar]

Its speculation. 99.9% I'm going with is that it won't be implemented in Alpha since it has no use. It would take a decent chunk of a market of items to test. Something that will require steady servers and many players. I'm guessing if anything we can expect it during the later stages of beta.

Actually ....

Something Old, Something New

The trade system will be back in Final Fantasy XIV, but for large-scale commerce, the developers are looking to create something new and different from the Auction House system. Sundi expresses their intent to keep Final Fantasy XIV somewhat familiar to adventurers of Vana'diel, but at the same time really show players how they can enjoy the game in new ways.

This was from http://ffxiv.zam.com/story.html?story=19459

A Dengeki Online interview posted/translated by Elmer over at Zam. So they have in fact stated that they want something "new and different from the AH System" of the past.

So they intend to not have a traditional AH. Someone else said there was something mentioned of a "Market" system in one of the earlier Sundi interview videos that were posted a bit ago.

[Pikarya]

Actually ....


This was from http://ffxiv.zam.com/story.html?story=19459

A Dengeki Online interview posted/translated over at Zam. So they have in fact stated that they want something "new and different from the AH System" of the past.

So they intend to not have a traditional AH. Someone else said there was something mentioned of a "Market" system in one of the earlier Sundi interview videos that were posted a bit ago.

Good find, didn't even know about that that interview.

[Lurking Badger]

Well, they also said they wanted a new linkshell system, but in later interviews they still referred to it as "linkshells".

[Xanthe]

Actually ....


This was from http://ffxiv.zam.com/story.html?story=19459

A Dengeki Online interview posted/translated by Elmer over at Zam. So they have in fact stated that they want something "new and different from the AH System" of the past.

So they intend to not have a traditional AH. Someone else said there was something mentioned of a "Market" system in one of the earlier Sundi interview videos that were posted a bit ago.

I imagine that if they are reimplementing the AH system that they will forgo the blind bid method and simply display all items individually at their listed price. Star Trek Online uses that sort of listing scheme and I think it does a good job of keeping prices low. People go strait for the lower priced items forcing sellers to relist their items . It's a much more competitive economy.

[Oulanbator]

This tax sounds like a really good thing.
The point of the tax is to even out money given to players by Npcs (directly or indirectly), in order to avoid the in-game money growing exponentially. It keeps the economy steady and avoid extreme farming for Npcs.
When you look at a game like WOW, Npcs give you a shitload of money through quests, but also take back most of this money through respecs, mounts, permits etc...

In FFXI, the market is supposed to happen through AH. That's where the Npcs get their money back: AH tax. The problem however, is most expensive items are sold tax-free through bazaars. This results in less money taken from one of the biggest income source for the game;
The game needs to take a defined amount of money. If this money cannot be taken through the AH, it will be taken somewhere else. The game will take this money in a way or another. For example, chocobo prices or Npc warps.
How many warps does it takes to refund the not paid AH tax on an 4M item ?

So, with the FFXI system, the rich players selling the expensive items save a lot of money by dodging the tax, and everyone else pays for them through alternative means every time an Npc ask them for money.

That's why a bazaar tax is a good thing: people supposed to give more money to the game will actually have to give this money, instead of letting everyone pay for them.



Also, the tax will not define how much an item will be sold for. You'll decide the price according to the competition around you. If you sell kabobs for 1k+tax, and the guy next to you sells for 1k including tax, guess who will sell his kabobs ?

[qpoiuwer]

This tax sounds like a really good thing.
The point of the tax is to even out money given to players by Npcs (directly or indirectly), in order to avoid the in-game money growing exponentially. It keeps the economy steady and avoid extreme farming for Npcs.
When you look at a game like WOW, Npcs give you a shitload of money through quests, but also take back most of this money through respecs, mounts, permits etc...

In FFXI, the market is supposed to happen through AH. That's where the Npcs get their money back: AH tax. The problem however, is most expensive items are sold tax-free through bazaars. This results in less money taken from one of the biggest income source for the game;
The game needs to take a defined amount of money. If this money cannot be taken through the AH, it will be taken somewhere else. The game will take this money in a way or another. For example, chocobo prices or Npc warps.
How many warps does it takes to refund the not paid AH tax on an 4M item ?

So, with the FFXI system, the rich players selling the expensive items save a lot of money by dodging the tax, and everyone else pays for them through alternative means every time an Npc ask them for money.

That's why a bazaar tax is a good thing: people supposed to give more money to the game will actually have to give this money, instead of letting everyone pay for them.



Also, the tax will not define how much an item will be sold for. You'll decide the price according to the competition around you. If you sell kabobs for 1k+tax, and the guy next to you sells for 1k including tax, guess who will sell his kabobs ?

Do you really think that if people are buying a >million gil item, they won't just send the guy a tell and trade with him to circumvent the tax?

[Oulanbator]

Yes, some people will manage to sell stuff through tells, but most won't.

Have you ever tried to Mp people in Rolmart ? Most of them are afk and far away (work, party, school...), others are asleep, and a couple might be in front of their screen but half of these won't even ear your /tell because sound off/watching videos/working/cooking in the next room etc etc...
Unless you want to spend hours afk at a selling point waiting for a potential buyer to send you a tell, you won't get around the tax like this. I'm not saying there aren't alternatives (like shouting in cities etc...) but I doubt it will be convenient.
On top of this, the buyer don't give a damn about saving you some gil, it doesn't change anything for him.

Also, take in consideration the provenance of these items. I'd say about an half is sold by "random" players: people who got luck on drops, people who got a couple HQs, people that replace their gear etc... They bazaar once in a while and can eventually find a convenient time to stay around and dodge the tax.
The other half is mostly sold by HNMls mules with high traffic (every couple day they add 3~4 highly expensive items they got by farming HNMs). They are here 24/7, selling extremely expensive items non-stop. I highly doubt they can afford to be watching the mule full-time to make deals. Sure they have websites and stuff, but it's still an hassle for the buyer to go through these.

And once again, the buyer doesn't pay shit, so why would he get out of his way to save someone else's money ?


The tax is also good because it works against bazaar parasites. Buying something to sell it right back is what I call being a parasite. It's some kind of robbery because the player rises the price of an item without changing anything to the final product.
The 5% tax makes things a bit more complicated for these players as well. To be honest, I think SE should push it even farther, with a time imposed to sell back items in function of their prices (the longer you hold an item, the higher you can raise the price... impossible to buy 500k and sell 1M without waiting some time while market fluctuates).


So this tax leads to:
- cheaper Npc prices for everyone
- rich players paying more taxes
- less convenience for bazaar parasites

I don't even understand how it can be seen as bad.

[bluefan]

Do you really think that if people are buying a >million gil item, they won't just send the guy a tell and trade with him to circumvent the tax?

A lot of people will, but lets face it. People are bat shit lazy.

I'm really liking a tax system, because it makes bartering/trading more worthwhile. I like interacting with different peeps :3