Florida edumacation system

[archibaldcrane]

Studying as in doing the shitty worksheets over and over to memorize the answers for the test. Not really learning anything from that.

I guess I'm not really sure what you mean.

Like, for example, in 5th grade we had to memorize all the states on a U.S. map and all their capitals. In memorizing this information, I, um, learned where all the states were on a U.S. map and all the capitals. It was for a test, sure, but it's not like I didn't learn anything. What were you memorizing that you didn't know previously, but still didn't take any new knowledge away from?

[Delenn]

(Calc AB was a pre-requisite for Calc BC) in ours, although I have never heard anyone claim that the BC class re-covered all the AB material and then added to it. Maybe at our school they just taught the new stuff, or your school's program was poorly administered.

http://www.collegeboard.com/student/...sub_calbc.html

It includes all topics covered in Calculus AB plus additional topics. Both courses represent college-level mathematics for which most colleges grant advanced placement and credit. The content of Calculus BC is designed to qualify the student for placement and credit in a course that is one course beyond that granted for Calculus AB.

Sadly, it's official that Calc BC is a strict superset of Calc AB. Perhaps the entity behind the AP tests believes half-a-year of review is required for high school Calculus >_>.

In general, my AP/honors teachers were great, however they were still constrained by the system. The Calc BC teacher (Mr. Watson) probably would've let me take his class unofficially, but I didn't want him penalized in any way shape or form for breaking rules, which is why I went through official channels.

[Antithesis]

I guess I'm not really sure what you mean.

Like, for example, in 5th grade we had to memorize all the states on a U.S. map and all their capitals. In memorizing this information, I, um, learned where all the states were on a U.S. map and all the capitals. It was for a test, sure, but it's not like I didn't learn anything. What were you memorizing that you didn't know previously, but still didn't take any new knowledge away from?

"What color was (insert main character from a novel here)'s cat?"
"What is the symbolical meaning of (insert shitty symbolical reference.)"
"How many times did (person A) say (weird phrase.)"

Shit like that. Memorizing useless information about a novel and the teacher would never even talk about this stuff in depth. Granted, to me, that is not really a learning experience. Maybe it's different for you, but memorizing stupid crap like that? Not really.

[Monkor]

It is about time for parents to stop fucking.

FTFY and at the same time found your solution to stop kids from being idiots.

[Antithesis]

I heard a good backslap deals with idiocy.

[Ohemgee]

Crist only doing it for his failed Senate run.

[#686578]

Question: For the people who had a high school experience that was "stupid and boring, easy, didn't learn anything, teachers sucked" - are we talking about the highest level, AP, hardest classes offered?

Or were there no Academically Motivated/AP/College prep classes offered, or were people taking the easy classes and complaining they were easy?

I was taking the highest level AP/Honors classes while dual enrolled in college. So yeah, I know a thing or two about what I'm saying. I graduated Highschool with a 3.2 GPA, so thanks for the condescension.

[#686578]

I was commenting on the fact that short response questions don't encourage critical thinking. They encourage critical thinking as much as reading an article and then selecting the correct multiple choice answer.

If it was applied more often in the tests your assumption might be valid, but it only really applies at the collegiate level, anything in the highschool level is pretty much a waste of effort.

Did you see the part where I said "If done right?", because you're retarded if you dont think you have to apply critical thinking skills to appropriate short response answers.

If you ask for 3-5 sentences that actually call for providing well thought out responses that clearly show some sort of applied theory it's not worthless.

Even for math whizzes, learning Calculus does require studying, and you do have to "learn" a lot to pass the tests. Did people go to high schools where Calc wasn't an option? I guess I don't know how a teacher could make it "easy" unless the class was just shit and you left having no chance at passing an AP test (in which case the teacher is clearly to blame).

We had AP calc offered as a single 1 year course. There was a "Pre-calc" which was essentially just trigonometry, but it wasnt anything like calc AB/BC etc. Unless you actually went to a Florida school I dont think you would understand.

Also, the AP Calc class was easy. The only differentiation that those people who actually wanted to pass the AP test had to actually take anything seriously, and even then, calculus is seriously not that hard.

[Beckwin]

I guess what I wonder is - my public high school had two years of "college level" calculus offered. It was basically two semesters of college calculus spread out into two years (junior and senior) for the highest-level math students. At the end you'd take AP tests, and if you passed you got college credit.

Even for math whizzes, learning Calculus does require studying, and you do have to "learn" a lot to pass the tests. Did people go to high schools where Calc wasn't an option? I guess I don't know how a teacher could make it "easy" unless the class was just shit and you left having no chance at passing an AP test (in which case the teacher is clearly to blame).

people on the internet like to cockwave about math being easy, but even if they like it a lot/are good at it, when you have a 3.2 high school GPA the whole bit about school being too easy is a load of shit.

high school calc is a bit easier.... maybe tied to quality of instruction I guess; I didn't feel that my HS calc teacher was great. I got an A in the course (and it did require a bit of studying but not overly much) but didn't blow the AP exam out of the water (got a 3 or 4, don't recall exactly but it definitely wasn't easy). tried calc 2 in college and only got a high C (worst grade in my career, f math).

[archibaldcrane]

I was taking the highest level AP/Honors classes while dual enrolled in college. So yeah, I know a thing or two about what I'm saying. I graduated Highschool with a 3.2 GPA, so thanks for the condescension.

Ok, so what you're saying is that high school was easy and the teachers sucked, but you only swung a 3.2 GPA?

Spoiler: show

don't sweat it man, my high school GPA was only a 3.2 also, but I knew what I needed for college and that was my target, I wasn't railing against how terrible the teachers were because of it

We had AP calc offered as a single 1 year course. There was a "Pre-calc" which was essentially just trigonometry, but it wasnt anything like calc AB/BC etc. Unless you actually went to a Florida school I dont think you would understand.

Also, the AP Calc class was easy. The only differentiation that those people who actually wanted to pass the AP test had to actually take anything seriously, and even then, calculus is seriously not that hard.

And the calc class was terrible and the teacher taught you nothing, but any motivated student still learned enough to pass the AP exam that is standardized for the whole country? Why is Florida education so bad again? This is a terrible argument.

I have no horse in the race - I don't have anything to prove about whether Florida public school education is substandard or not - but I am hearing a lot of whining.

My ears are ringing from it.

[guartz]

And the calc class was terrible and the teacher taught you nothing, but any motivated student still learned enough to pass the AP exam that is standardized for the whole country? Why is Florida education so bad again?

Let's stay on topic. The new bill modifies teachers salaries based on performance. Because a teacher who does nothing but assign work and sleep should not get paid as a teacher who actually tries to, you know, teach.

[Acturus]

Let's stay on topic. The new bill modifies teachers salaries based on performance. Because a teacher who does nothing but assign work and sleep should not get paid as a teacher who actually tries to, you know, teach.

The bill was (thankfully) vetoed, but what many teachers complained, and legitimately complained, about was how a single standardized test across the state was not a valid way to compare a teacher's performance.

One teacher, let's say at the elementary school level, is lucky to only have 25 kids in her class and a part-time aide to assist. He or she is responsible to teach, council, and motivate each of those children to not only learn, but to want to learn. Mind you, this teach already puts in between 3 and 4 extra hours a day beyond what she gets paid for just to keep her classroom ready and her cirriculum prepared for the students, and let's not forget how much of a teacher's own money is spent on buying things for her classroom outside of whatever meager allowance he or she gets from the school. My mom teaches kindergarten, has taught it for more than 20 years, and some of the stuff in her classroom to this day are toys, games, and books from when my little brother and I were 5-6 years old. I'm 28 now.

The teacher has little to no control over the kids that will make up her class, and no single teaching method works for all students.

All the teachers are usually given is a list of education that must be taught, and it's usually up to the team, or maybe the school, to figure out how best to teach it. Very little in the state of Florida in terms of specific standardized teaching methods is given, and if anything standardized is sent down, almost nothing is evaluated.

So to have one test determine a dozen dynamics between the teacher and the student and the parents and the faculty and the learning process and the learning materials and everything else that goes into shaping young minds AND to use that one test as the primary basis of competency to ONLY the teacher has got to be some of the most rediculous shit to ever come across anyone's plate.

Nevermind that it's a pass or fail system to the student, and no other system learning during a student's tenure in the FL public school system is weighted so heavily while at the same time being pass or fail.

[FriemOcin]

Edit: Eh, that's really off-topic, isn't it? I'll put in more serious. u_u

I've heard a lot of discussion on that, with a teacher's salary being based off of their student's performance. From what I understand, a teacher has at least some control over what they teach their students. While it would be a good thing to have a teacher earn more pay based on how well they teach, a student's performance, obviously, is rated by their grades. Because the teacher has some control over the curriculum, they also have some control over the student's grades. I think that this will make being a teacher more competitive, but not necessarily among people who are actually good at teaching, but rather people who know how to get the best grades out of their students.

Edit 2: Actually, what I said before the edit is just plain inappropriate. I'll go ahead and edit that out.

[Beckwin]

Let's stay on topic. The new bill modifies teachers salaries based on performance. Because a teacher who does nothing but assign work and sleep should not get paid as a teacher who actually tries to, you know, teach.

yeah, so the mediocre AP calc teacher who gets nothing but high-achievers in her class is gonna get paid more than the highly-qualified (ESL certificate, master's degree, etc) and talented teacher who can get decent results out of impoverished, often language-deficient 3rd graders. all because the former's group of students will always do very well on standardized tests, while the latter's almost always are on the lower end.

and how about all the good teachers continuing to flock to the suburbs for the better conditions and easier job?

hurrf durrf competition hurrf derpa derp free market

[Not Kuno]

Bill got veto'd

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/16/us...er=rss&emc=rss

[FriemOcin]

Bill got veto'd

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/16/us...er=rss&emc=rss

Edit: Or rather, I'm glad it's been vetoed. It would have probably had a negative impact on the learning environment.

[ozz]

yeah, so the mediocre AP calc teacher who gets nothing but high-achievers in her class is gonna get paid more than the highly-qualified (ESL certificate, master's degree, etc) and talented teacher who can get decent results out of impoverished, often language-deficient 3rd graders. all because the former's group of students will always do very well on standardized tests, while the latter's almost always are on the lower end.

and how about all the good teachers continuing to flock to the suburbs for the better conditions and easier job?

hurrf durrf competition hurrf derpa derp free market

actually I think you're misrepresenting the proposal, it didn't adjust pay based on scores, it adjusted pay based on improvement in scores....which is a lot more fair than what you described, imo

[guartz]

Here in s Florida we have Sade county school board meetings broadcast via NPR. I was basing my opinion on the bill from what the teachers were saying. However you guys just highlighted some very good reasons why it's not a good bill. Funny since I listened to the entire broadcast.

[#686578]

Ok, so what you're saying is that high school was easy and the teachers sucked, but you only swung a 3.2 GPA?

Spoiler: show

don't sweat it man, my high school GPA was only a 3.2 also, but I knew what I needed for college and that was my target, I wasn't railing against how terrible the teachers were because of it

I outright didnt do a lot of work.

The only work I did were inclass assignments, last minute homework that I did in class AS the teacher was collecting it, and tests. Anything that required any effort at all I did not do. My calculus class was 80% Tests 20% Homework, I passed with a C. Really, the condescending tone is great and all but try going to any Florida classroom.

And the calc class was terrible and the teacher taught you nothing, but any motivated student still learned enough to pass the AP exam that is standardized for the whole country? Why is Florida education so bad again? This is a terrible argument.

...because it's the equivalent of not having an education system at all? If a student learns nothing from their teachers... do I really need to explain this (Seriously, ask me if you want me to expand on this, I will if I have to)?

I have no horse in the race - I don't have anything to prove about whether Florida public school education is substandard or not - but I am hearing a lot of whining.

My ears are ringing from it.

Q____________Q

Yeah it is a lot of whining, but you're trying to make it sound like unwarranted whining instead of informed people with legitimate complaints.

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Also, blanket response to some other people in the thread too: AP tests and highschool equivalents of college courses for college credit are generally easier than the college grade from my experience. I passed all of my math tests and shit for college credit but they didnt accept them and forced me to take the class. The class had the option of being "self paced" where you only needed to complete all of the assignments to pass the class, and all the assignments were posted already. When I finished the class in week 3 with my 92% A that's when I finally was able to talk to the Dean and couldnt do anything about it because I had already taken the class. The college course was much more difficult.

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In response to those more ontopic posts that arent just bitching like mine were, they have good points, Beckwin and Acturus both. Many teachers complain about how they're given a set teaching agenda by the school that dont coincide with the F-CAT (often because the FCAT's standards are less than the schools), so they're often struggling with making a decision of teaching to the test or teaching to the school's curriculum.

[archibaldcrane]

...because it's the equivalent of not having an education system at all? If a student learns nothing from their teachers... do I really need to explain this (Seriously, ask me if you want me to expand on this, I will if I have to)?

My point is it would be very, very difficult for a 17 year old to pass an AP calculus test if your teacher taught you nothing - yet you said that the kids who gave a shit were able to pass it, which suggests to me that they are learning in calc class.