Florida edumacation system

[Beckwin]

another eye opener regarding standards/curriculum is that there's a lot of opportunity for triage. I've spent some time looking at the Arizona standards, which line up with the AIMS (Arizona's FCAT or w/e), along with data showing how much each area and standard show up on the AIMS. There's stuff that, as a teacher shooting for best overall scores and working within time constraints, would be prudent to actually skip teaching entirely. Teaching your 3rd graders about vertexes is pointless (something like 2% of the math portion) compared to spending an extra week on multiplication facts and word problems (something like 15% of the test).

The improvement standard for pay is better than overall performance, but you still run into the same issues of teaching for the test, potential dishonesty, and still having problems getting through to these keeeeedz.

Take ESL learners for example. Say you get a group of 5 or so fresh-from-Mexico kids with virtually no English ability. You work your ass off and by the end of the year, they can read and write a little bit, and maybe even participate in class every now and then. All that work will not show up on a standardized test because despite their huge improvement, at that point they are still probably lacking the lexical knowledge necessary to take the test, even considering the accommodations afforded to ESL students (teacher reading directions, reading math problems, etc).

And of course there's also the problem of students who plain don't give a shit and having no support in their home to back you up.

That's why it's so hard to say "oh he/she is a bad teacher, look at those test scores" when in reality, you need the best teachers with the most needy kids and even then you can't expect miracles.

[Ohemgee]

I don't want to sound racist or condescending at ESL kids. But for fucks sake, learn to fucking speak English before we pass them on to the next grade

[Beckwin]

I don't want to sound racist or condescending at ESL kids. But for fucks sake, learn to fucking speak English before we pass them on to the next grade

you're completely off base because all that does is delay their growth in content areas. you do realize that not being English literate/fluent does not preclude you from being literate and fluent in another language, right?

Why should we hold kids back entirely who can still learn science, math, and history, even if it's not in English? They get tested in those areas; the knowledge will eventually transfer to English output but not if they never learn it because you have them grinding 1st grade until they speak "acceptable" English.

[Ohemgee]

You have a point for like, boondocks Homestead, Hialeah, and well, Miami that isn't already densely populated with non-Spanish...ok Miami-Dade county.

But younger kids aren't my concern (frankly I learned how to speak/understand Spanish when I was younger, so education is probably easier for foreign speakers at a younger age than it is at an older, which gets me to my point of) its much harder for older students to participate and learn who haven't learned English, or struggle with the basic concepts and structure of English (and not literal translations) in a English dominant environment like say, Broward, Palm Beach, and the rest of Florida.

My statement (albeit rushed), was to say that kids who don't know how to properly speak English will struggle past middle school in Broward or Palm beach (since thats the area where I live, its probably best to argue my environment). Eduardo may be great at Math (who isn't?), but he's going to be fucked for English comp, English/grammar for SAT, English FCAT, Linguistics classes, and other grindfest curriculum English courses that they require you to take.

Having said that, yeah I agree they can be great students having learning it in their own language, but they're totally fucked if they're not ready for standardized exams which is probably the reason why Broward College and FIU student base are mainly Latin.

And yes, theres no money in our education system anymore to fund bilingual classes, its all going towards express lanes in 95 so I can get to South Beach faster

[#686578]

My point is it would be very, very difficult for a 17 year old to pass an AP calculus test if your teacher taught you nothing - yet you said that the kids who gave a shit were able to pass it, which suggests to me that they are learning in calc class.

It suggests that they gave a shit enough to not only do the homework, pass the tests that everyone else could do without blinking, but also read the book, read the chapters we didnt cover (which were a lot), and do practice exams online. It has very little to do with the teacher teaching.

The teacher would sit upfront and literally read the book to us, or ask us to read it in turn. They weren't doing anything. If you had a question, you were told to refer to the book. If you didnt know how to do a problem, you were told to go read a practice example. Which really wouldnt be so bad if that wasnt the ONLY thing they did. Sometimes someone's just not trying, sure, you cant baby everyone and just give them the answer you do have to let people find certain things out on their own... but that's not what happened, even if you legitimately tried and didnt know how you were told to read the book. If you legitimately had a problem and couldnt figure out where you were going wrong, you'd have to get help from another student.

[archibaldcrane]

Ok, they sound like terrible teachers.

[Pirian]

So I was talking to my girl online and for the longest time I just thought she was using "txt typing", but after she sent this to me (she recently started going to the gym again, so you can speculate on what she was talking about, but it's not important to my point):

"speaking of the other ... its prolly gonna be another month before i can get all the nessicary parts in a comfterbul possition"

I realized she can't spell for shit. Now here's the problem in this little equation - she took AP English all through high school and is in college now. While I can grant that she's not an English major, she is pharmaceutical major where she has to memorize the names of tons of drugs and know how to spell them, so how does a sentence like the one I presented formulate with such striking errors? I mean, these are basic errors that one should be able to see phonically and sound it out. She is a real bookworm, too, so that adds another depth to this mystery.

I can overlook phonic errors in the spelling of complicated words, but this is middle school stuff at best, and honestly I can say that I learned the phonic spelling of most words before leaving elementary school, and by then it was just adding to the vocabulary. What my real gripe about this is if she was AP all through high school, then what were the regular classes possibly like?

To give a little background: she lived in a rural, lower-middle to lower class, area growing up and went to those schools. I lived in a suburban, middle through upper-middle class, area and went to those schools. (For those of you who know NC - she's from Clayton and I'm from Cary)

I really didn't consider my education to be anything special, and it wasn't until junior-senior year that I cared enough to take AP classes, before then I opted out mainly because I didn't see the point. I even got put into AP English my sophomore year, but that caught me by surprise because I didn't sign up for it, and I hadn't done any of the summer readings or anything so I asked them to take me out of that class, which they did.

It looks like I got a better education than her even though she was AP and I took, at least for English, regular classes.

[archibaldcrane]

If she's an avid reader (Twilight, Harry Potter, whatever, they spell the words properly at least) then I have no idea how she could fuck up basic spelling so terribly.

[Pirian]

Yeah she's read all those, but she more has a thing for romance novels (lol) and that's usually what she's got her nose in when she's not in school. Seriously, the girl goes through a 200-300 page novel a week.

[guartz]

Yeah she's read all those, but she more has a thing for romance novels (lol) and that's usually what she's got her nose in when she's not in school. Seriously, the girl goes through a 200-300 page novel a week.

Mine does it in a few hours.


No joke

[Pirian]

Mine does it in a few hours.


No joke

To be fair she doesn't have all that much time to read between work and school. But yeah, bitchs speed read <.< no idea how they do that

[#686578]

Yeah she's read all those, but she more has a thing for romance novels (lol) and that's usually what she's got her nose in when she's not in school. Seriously, the girl goes through a 200-300 page novel a week.

There's seriously no excuse for that. If she can read at all, much less as much as that... Honestly, there must be something amazing about this girl for you to still be with her. I know I couldnt be.

[Plow]

actually I think you're misrepresenting the proposal, it didn't adjust pay based on scores, it adjusted pay based on improvement in scores....which is a lot more fair than what you described, imo

This seems like a major difference, but it still creates similar huge problems.

Scenario A: You're testing improvement on the same level test. You take the test, the teacher spends the year "teaching to the test," the one that gets the most improvement wins.

Biggest downfall: Who did a better job teaching, the teacher in the upper class neighborhood where the parents make the kids do homework a couple hours every night etc. and got an improvement of 60% to 90%, or the one who taught students who can barely read and parents hardly exist and managed to take them from 30% to 55%?

Even if you somehow come to the conclusion that the one with the 30% difference did better, who deserves to get paid more, the one doing slightly better in a perfect environment, or the one doing just as well in a shitty job dealing with shitty situations constantly?

Scenario B: You're testing improvement on the next level of test. You take the test at end of 3rd grade.Teacher spends entire year "teaching to" the harder test, take harder test at end of 4th grade.

Biggest downfalls are quite similar, plus the lack of consideration for massive failure in previous years, it's pointless trying to teach to the "next level" when the students don't learn the basis prior. You might make huge strides on a 3rd or 4th grade level, and then your students fail terribly because they're in 7th grade and were handed to you with the scholastic capabilities of a 2nd grader.


Either way, you're still fucking over harder the people that are the most fucked in the first place.

[Plow]

My point is it would be very, very difficult for a 17 year old to pass an AP calculus test if your teacher taught you nothing - yet you said that the kids who gave a shit were able to pass it, which suggests to me that they are learning in calc class.

You don't have adequate class time to learn most of that stuff in high school from the teacher. Homework is more important there until probably second semester sophomore year of the "hard" majors.

I used to babysit a kid that was in the IB program and his little brother, it was the easiest job I ever had because the way that shit works is to load you up with homework to learn it and help you fix mistakes in class. His brother would study/do homework then come out and play basketball with me until the parents got home. He'd still be working hard when I left a few hours after he got home.

I remember when I was considering doing it, they said the general rule is to expect 2 hours of homework for every hour of class time, and I said fuck that cuz I was playing sports heh.

[Rothbardian]

yeah, so the mediocre AP calc teacher who gets nothing but high-achievers in her class is gonna get paid more than the highly-qualified (ESL certificate, master's degree, etc) and talented teacher who can get decent results out of impoverished, often language-deficient 3rd graders. all because the former's group of students will always do very well on standardized tests, while the latter's almost always are on the lower end.

and how about all the good teachers continuing to flock to the suburbs for the better conditions and easier job?

hurrf durrf competition hurrf derpa derp free market

This is fucking stupid. Your fucking totalitarian system is bankrupt, and is the major source for the ills of education in this country. This top down bureaucratic nightmare, which imposes, coerces, and demands. There is nothing Free-Market with a compulsory educational system which is aligned with other Government imposed systems (Read: DMV, et. al).

Hurff durrf egalitarian, children, *mutter*, *mutter*, children, children, free, tenure, tax, impose, children, *mutter*.

Yeah, god-forbid those people who feel that the pay for teaching in metropolitan hell-holes induced by Welfarism, Paternalism, and aggrandizement, along with the Fascistic Economic System is just not worth the pay. Those motherfuckers. They should work in horrible conditions, for the same pay as those in the suburban, and rural areas. Bureacracy fail again!

For those who say they are anti-monopolist, they sure do love their monopolies!

Now do not take this post as a defense for this bill. I'm not one to mince with the system, I want to destroy the system. It is akin to messing with tax rates. I don't want a tax rate to begin with.

[Beckwin]

all the NCLB and merit pay initiatives tie money to success. "better" teachers get more money; schools that pass more students get more money. Schools that have trouble can get "shut down" akin to a bad business being forced to shut down. it's been introduced by people who are trying to simulate market conditions and add certain market principles to a socialized system and it's backfired pretty fucking awfully.

we need to completely redo how we fund schools (not property taxes, god that's so stupid) and find ways to get more (skilled) personnel with the students who need the most help. curriculum needs rehauls as well; it's gotten too convoluted between state and national standards that have a misguided approach for many subjects (i.e. expansive standards [3rd graders learning very basic geometry terms that can't really be practically applied yet] vs. more focused standards that stress mastery [every third grader is a boss at multiplication- singaporean model, roughly]).

I also want to tear down the education industry. Let's get our universities producing curricula and materials that can be used at any school, in a non-profit fashion. copies would be a-fucking-ok.