Ranger Weapon Calculations

[LinktheDeme]

Before I get sent off to Random thread or Magian weapon thread I posted there and got no response within a day so I figured it wasn't hitting the proper audience.

I was wondering about

Dragonmaw :
DMG 11 Delay 590
DMG+28 Delay + 70
Occasionally Attacks twice.

With silver bullets (DMG:81, Delay:240 ) so I think a net damage of 120 with net delay of 900

vs

Astrild
DMG: 70 Delay: 524
DMG: +10

with kabura arrow (DMG +38 Delay: 90) for a net DMG of 118 and Delay of 614

I was thinking that the occasionally attacks twice gun would come out ahead since low base damage on gun isn't a huge factor for marksmanship since the damage comes from the ammo.

A few things I was wondering is:
-Could someone post the math difference or at least explain the formulas how to calculate the damage while taking into consideration snapshot merits, Velocity shot and the other snapshot pieces (outside of salvage/assault). Also the % chance of rapid shot occurring
-If the % is known for the double attack and if it is double attack rather than double damage (resulting in double tp essentially).
-If the double attack works on each individual hit of barrage
-If the wRANK(I believe that is what it is called) is based on base damage or base damage + augmented damage. And how it would influence the calculations.

[Kirschy]

Before I get sent off to Random thread or Magian weapon thread I posted there and got no response within a day so I figured it wasn't hitting the proper audience.

I was wondering about

Dragonmaw :
DMG 11 Delay 590
DMG+28 Delay + 70
Occasionally Attacks twice.

With silver bullets (DMG:81, Delay:240 ) so I think a net damage of 120 with net delay of 900

vs

Astrild
DMG: 70 Delay: 524
DMG: +10

with kabura arrow (DMG +38 Delay: 90) for a net DMG of 118 and Delay of 614

I was thinking that the occasionally attacks twice gun would come out ahead since low base damage on gun isn't a huge factor for marksmanship since the damage comes from the ammo.

A few things I was wondering is:
-Could someone post the math difference or at least explain the formulas how to calculate the damage while taking into consideration snapshot merits, Velocity shot and the other snapshot pieces (outside of salvage/assault). Also the % chance of rapid shot occurring
-If the % is known for the double attack and if it is double attack rather than double damage (resulting in double tp essentially).
-If the double attack works on each individual hit of barrage
-If the wRANK(I believe that is what it is called) is based on base damage or base damage + augmented damage. And how it would influence the calculations.

I did some basic tests on ranged attacks a while ago. It was very difficult to get precise data, but it appears as though Velocity Shot/Snap Shot aren't as effective as Haste spell due to Ranged Shots having a base delay that doesn't decrease. It's possible more testing has been done on Alla/KI (I haven't kept up /w their boards in a while and they have some great tests.) Rapid shot also appears to work like Conserve MP in that it randomly reduces your ranged delay by varied amounts.

Due to the above reasons, it will be hard to get a very accurate model when comparing two weapons. You might get some informative responses on basic comparisons between the two, but I don't think you'll get anything concrete until someone upgrades and posts their experiences /w it.

[Shadida]

The biggest problem about snapshot is the fact that there is no auto ranged attack. So, whatever you're gaining in Snapshot, you're still losing whatever time it takes you to manually initiate a new ranged attack and also any shots that are interrupted due to movement or knockback.

That said, the biggest difference between Gun and Bow for the purposes of damage calculation is the weapon rank. Weapon rank is calculated based on only the ranged weapon, not the ammo. I thought I saw testing in the Magians thread that concluded the +DMG from augmentation does factor into weapon rank, but please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

In any case, weapon rank directly affects the lower and upper bounds of fSTR2, which is a function of your STR vs the mob's VIT. In the case of marksmanship, the lowest fSTR2 for a Dragonmaw is -8, and the highest is 24. Compare that with a bow like Astrild, which has a lower bound of -14, and an upper bound of 30.

What does this mean? On targets with relatively low VIT, you will cap STR a lot faster with a gun than you will with the bow. In other words, 1 STR will cease to give you any benefit (aside from .5 ranged attack) beyond a certain point, and you reach that cap sooner on a gun. This is relevant in cases like Colibri merit parties - with a gun I only really need +30 STR in order to reach that cap, whereas a bow is going to take more like +50 or so.

On HNM things get a little more difficult to put your finger on, since they tend to have really high defense also. Also the fact that they're higher level means you're suffering a substantial pDIF penalty when not using Flashy Shot. You're generally unlikely to cap fSTR2 on HNMs. In my experience, you're best off improving your pDIF (ranged attack vs defense) than relying on STR to push you into higher damage. That's why BRD and COR and Angon have such a profound effect on RNG attacks and weapon skills.

That's my two cents. I can't wait for the math junkies to roll in and pick my post apart, lol.

I'm 2/10 on my gun... I'll be happy to answer your other questions about the OAT stuff when I finally get my hands on it.

[Vodou]

I did some basic tests on ranged attacks a while ago. It was very difficult to get precise data, but it appears as though Velocity Shot/Snap Shot aren't as effective as Haste spell due to Ranged Shots having a base delay that doesn't decrease. It's possible more testing has been done on Alla/KI (I haven't kept up /w their boards in a while and they have some great tests.) Rapid shot also appears to work like Conserve MP in that it randomly reduces your ranged delay by varied amounts.

Due to the above reasons, it will be hard to get a very accurate model when comparing two weapons. You might get some informative responses on basic comparisons between the two, but I don't think you'll get anything concrete until someone upgrades and posts their experiences /w it.

Vzx did tests and posted results on Alla on these issues, iirc in 2006 or maybe as early as 2005.

Range has a static (fixed) portion of ~313 frames (recall that the frames for ranged is 110 per second not 60) and is unaffected by snapshot or velocity shot. (It seemed to be somewhat variable at slightly less than 3 seconds.) I believe he described this as all the time that occurs after you fire and put the weapon away. The taking out of the weapon, aiming and firing is the variable part. Snapshot and velocity work on the variable portion as expected to reduce total variable frame count.

Rapid shot as you also stated, works to reduce the the attack delay (iirc, randomly somewhere between 1/16 and 8/16, i.e., like conserve MP). Testing on the rapid shot affect was particularly difficult from what was posted due to some variability in the fixed portion of the sequence which seemed to occur on all ranged attacks regardless of whether rapid shot was available or not.) I can't recall whether his test showed it reduces only the variable or the fixed portion, although it seems it affects the fixed portion.

I need to go find that post but not at 3:30 AM.

[Kirschy]

Vzx did tests and posted results on Alla on these issues, iirc in 2006 or maybe as early as 2005.

Range has a static (fixed) portion of ~313 frames (recall that the frames for ranged is 110 per second not 60) and is unaffected by snapshot or velocity shot. (It seemed to be somewhat variable at slightly less than 3 seconds.) I believe he described this as all the time that occurs after you fire and put the weapon away. The taking out of the weapon, aiming and firing is the variable part. Snapshot and velocity work on the variable portion as expected to reduce total variable frame count.

Rapid shot as you also stated, works to reduce the the attack delay (iirc, randomly somewhere between 1/16 and 8/16, i.e., like conserve MP). Testing on the rapid shot affect was particularly difficult from what was posted due to some variability in the fixed portion of the sequence which seemed to occur on all ranged attacks regardless of whether rapid shot was available or not.) I can't recall whether his test showed it reduces only the variable or the fixed portion, although it seems it affects the fixed portion.

I need to go find that post but not at 3:30 AM.

Yea I did my testing shortly after Vzx's. His tests inspired me to do some of my own because of the experience I gained through testing melee delay. Either way our information on ranged attacks is far behind melee, so our ability to model and create accurate predictions are a bit off.

[LinktheDeme]

Let me get this straight,

If both the gun and bow have a delay of 313 it shouldn't matter for both scenarios though I am thinking as it is a sunk cost(going to happen regardless of what weapon. Its a good factor for comparing a ranged to melee I would imagine and it would also come into effect on something like the repeating cross bow (because the delay is so low that human error in attacking may affect it on occasion).

In the case of wRank lower wRank is better for something like exp mobs because you can cap it faster, but for HNMS higher wRank is better? Or is it always better to have a lower wRank in order to cap it faster?

[midguardian]

From what I remember of VZX's testing, the unavoidable delay after firing was a bit less than 2 seconds. Kind of like a JA delay. Because of this and the lack of auto-attack for ranged weapons, you have to discount the benefit of lowering the delay of ranged weapons and it's not something you can calculate precisely.

One thing I recall reading is that ammo delay is NOT taken into account in determining your attack speed. Sounds silly to me, but if I remember right, this was one of VZX's test results. This means that ammo delay only affects your TP gain per shot and not your firing rate. Advantage to guns.

I wouldn't worry about weapon rank unless you are talking about some very low damage weapon. But these are the gimicky weapons that also have low delay and are hard to take good advantage of. For normal weapons I would think you have plenty of room to pile on strength, even accounting for the difference in fstr2 vs fstr.

I think for ranged weapons you're best off going for an x-hit build with a high delay weapon and taking whatever snapshot/rapidshot comes along for the ride.

As for double TP vs merely double damage, I believe I saw a post somewhere that confirmed the double TP, but I can't remember where that was.

I doubt you get double attacks on barrage, but I haven't seen anything posted. If so, I wonder if there is an 8-hit cap. Probably. Still would be nice.

[LinktheDeme]

I always used to think (probably placebo) that ammo delay effected reshot but if that's been proven that it isn't and it only gives TP then wow I think my choice is set without even considering doing the math if the OAT (gives TP as well and it has the same rate of melee weapons which I heard between 33-50%)

[Aevis]

the OAT bows proc every other /ra, it displays two shots in the log (both full dmg) and you get double tp return, if both hit and eats two arrows. does not proc on barrage and ws afaik. http://www.bluegartr.com/forum/showp...&postcount=937 basically the whole page 32 of the magian weapons thread.

[Vodou]

the OAT bows proc every other /ra, it displays two shots in the log (both full dmg) and you get double tp return, if both hit and eats two arrows. does not proc on barrage and ws afaik. http://www.bluegartr.com/forum/showp...&postcount=937 basically the whole page 32 of the magian weapons thread.

No data. No parse. Just a casual observation about the DA proc rate, aka eyeballing. Until there's something more than that, its 40%.

[Jimothy]

It seems silly to me to dismiss snapshot's usefulness due to the lack of auto ranged. I agree that not having auto attack hurts it but most people over exaggerate the difficulty of using them in successsion. The delay between attacks stays the same as long as snapshot doesn't change (excluding rapid shot procs), it really isn't that hard to get the timing down. Of course its not something you can expect to do with 100% consistency but if you're paying attention you'll get it most of the time. To me its like not equipping slow+ gear for ws out of fear that you won't hit your tp macro fast enough and you'll get 1 slow attack round in.

[Spider-Dan]

Compound (weapon+ammo) ranged weapon delay mechanic is as follows:

aim and fire -> holster weapon -> free melee -> can fire again

aiming delay (time from CTRL+D to shot fired), in seconds = [(weapon delay * [1 - Snapshot%]) / 110)
holster weapon delay (avatar puts weapon away, no new action can be performed) = 1.7-1.8s (usually calculated as 1.75s)
free melee delay (melee autoattack timer is unpaused, no other action can be performed) = 1.1s

holster + free time = 2.85s, or 313 ranged delay (at 110/second). This is never affected by Snapshot or Rapid Shot, so it's static.

That's why the common method for comparing ranged weapons is to add 313 to the ranged delay (after Snapshot reduction) and divide that result by 110 to find the real firing speed.

I do not subscribe to the theory that Snapshot is difficult to evaluate because of the lack of ranged attack, for exactly the same reason that Haste is still useful even in situations where you cannot autotarget from one mob to the next.

[midguardian]

Compound (weapon+ammo) ranged weapon delay mechanic is as follows:

aim and fire -> holster weapon -> free melee -> can fire again

aiming delay (time from CTRL+D to shot fired), in seconds = [(weapon delay * [1 - Snapshot%]) / 110)
holster weapon delay (avatar puts weapon away, no new action can be performed) = 1.7-1.8s (usually calculated as 1.75s)
free melee delay (melee autoattack timer is unpaused, no other action can be performed) = 1.1s

holster + free time = 2.85s, or 313 ranged delay (at 110/second). This is never affected by Snapshot or Rapid Shot, so it's static.

That's why the common method for comparing ranged weapons is to add 313 to the ranged delay (after Snapshot reduction) and divide that result by 110 to find the real firing speed.

Good information. Thanks.

I do not subscribe to the theory that Snapshot is difficult to evaluate because of the lack of ranged attack, for exactly the same reason that Haste is still useful even in situations where you cannot autotarget from one mob to the next.

How do you compare +x% snapshot to +y STR?

[Allelujah]

havent played ranger enough to test out the barrage proc and ws proc.

i do know i lost my PPA on a ws tho (unlimited shot), which was weird.

[Shadida]

havent played ranger enough to test out the barrage proc and ws proc.

i do know i lost my PPA on a ws tho (unlimited shot), which was weird.

You said you were using it vs. Yilbegan who does cast Dispelga - are you sure it wasn't dispelled? Because this scares the shit out of me if I get a Hightail Bullet.

Hope you got your quiver before it happened XD

[LinktheDeme]

Can you always just trade one arrow now for a quiver? Like use 98 PP arrows and then trade in the last one for a new quiver?

edit: nvm it dispenses one bullet I am retarded <,<

[xerodok]

Does the animation show you shooting twice?

[Shadida]

God, I want my gun to fire twice. GAT GAT

5/10 tho

[Johnblaze]

pretty sure what they dispense is also ra/ex

Just Ex... you can keep poppin them every week.

[Allelujah]

Believe the animation is one shot for 2 arrows. Been so focused on camping stupid shit NM's like the one in Garliage that hasnt spawned in over 12 hours...

And I was no where in range for dispelga. Gonna rng again tonight vs 2x Yilbegans.