New Classes Discovered

[darkscion0]

What's so bad about skills or gear that everyone must have lest they be considered gimp? Simply get the skill or gear in question and stop being such a noob.

You completely missed my point and I didn't say anything about gear. What I'm talking about is SE balancing the skills enough that it will cater to multiple play styles. So if you're going to play as a PUG you're not considered gimp if you don't specifically have skill 1, skill 2, skill 3, etc...

And calling someone a noob because their opinion differs from yours? Really?

@Your Second Post: I completely agree with the gear thing. I don't want this game to be another Wow because I left that game cause they took all the grind out of it and got sick of everything being handed to everyone just for logging in. Two things that I want are items base on skill (Raiding with your LS) and items based on time investment (something to solo grind, etc...) The solo grind stuff means that you'll always have something to do when you log in, although for FFXI that could just be grinding for gil.

[Kachi]

If they're smart they'll exploit the very simple strength of the customization mechanic they're employing... if an ability becomes so vital that it's expected you to use it, up the cost. If an ability sucks so badly that you're chastised for using it, lower the cost. I've been advocating this system for as long as the game was in development for this very simple reason: it's so fucking easy to balance, even SE can manage it.

[Loaar]

And while to some my last post might seem like trolling, I am semi-serious.

I get the feeling that some want FFXIV to be a game where all content and gear will be equally accessible to everyone with a small static of friends, without the need for hardcore LSs or lucky claims or shitty drop rates, and that everyone will be set apart from one another not by what they do or don't have, but by their own personal styles of play and specializations, all of which will be equally effective with no one "best" skill/stat/gear build.

But the reality is, there will be a best stat build, best equipment (especially since there's no gearswapping, no more "shit's situational"), best set of skills, and if you don't have certain things, you won't be respected. There will be retarded specializations that nobody will invite for xp. There will be some fights where certain builds or party makeups are required. Some classes will be needed more than others. Some skills will be necessary for everyone. There will be items that everyone wants, and by necessity, LSs will form to get it. And those LSs will come up with a system to determine who gets what, when. And multiple LSs will compete for it.

It's naive to think this won't happen. Sure, it's a new game and when it first starts, we'll all be noobs in a happy wonderland where no one discriminates and nobody knows what separates a good player from a bad one. But it won't take long for us to figure it out, figure out what the best builds are and the best, most efficient paths to get there. And it won't take long to figure out how to tell which players are following that path and which aren't, so we know who to invite for parties and include in our LSs.

Knowing this will happen eventually, the best thing to do is not hope that it never comes. Instead, try to nudge SE in a preferred direction while the game is still in alpha. But don't try to push them into making the utopia that some would like it to be, because it won't happen. We must be realistic. Think of it more as a controlled descent to keep SE from crash landing into an endgame scenario nobody wants. There are some things we can possibly influence for the better, but in the end, we'll still have to think about ourselves and how we want to stand apart and be elite.

Of course there will be this. What nobody wants is the whole /nin only thing we had in FFXI. If every class has abilities that are must haves to make it the best it can be, thats great. Nobody wants to have the situation where if you don't have XXX job leveled for the cross class skill that everyone just has to have then your screwed.

It is seriously the most retarded thing in FFXI and I'd hate to see that design carry over to FFXIV. There are so many better ways to do it.

[Battlecat]

blah blah blah blah tl;dr

His point is that there will ALWAYS be a best way to do damage for each particular job, that's just how it works, it's pretty much unavoidable. If you decide to equip a bunch of enfeebling spells and then try and call yourself a DD... that doesn't make you a DD. I personally don't care as long as the abilities and gear you chose make sense for what you're trying to accomplish. And in XI, having utsu made sense. Now drop this sillyness and get back to at least speculating on XIV instead of QQing about an 8 year old game.

[Purrrfect]

They said in the alpha manual that the action bar is capped at twenty slots for the alpha so I'd guess that you might start out with less in the retail version when you start and'll have more by the time you hit level fifty gaining action points as well.

They could also tweak it so your abilities cost less when they match you current class.

That would be an interesting idea. Limiting the amount of action bar slots to use would make planning your abilities more important. They would probably tie that into physical level?

[Uzor]

And while to some my last post might seem like trolling, I am semi-serious.

I get the feeling that some want FFXIV to be a game where all content and gear will be equally accessible to everyone with a small static of friends, without the need for hardcore LSs or lucky claims or shitty drop rates, and that everyone will be set apart from one another not by what they do or don't have, but by their own personal styles of play and specializations, all of which will be equally effective with no one "best" skill/stat/gear build.

But the reality is, there will be a best stat build, best equipment (especially since there's no gearswapping, no more "shit's situational"), best set of skills, and if you don't have certain things, you won't be respected. There will be retarded specializations that nobody will invite for xp. There will be some fights where certain builds or party makeups are required. Some classes will be needed more than others. Some skills will be necessary for everyone. There will be items that everyone wants, and by necessity, LSs will form to get it. And those LSs will come up with a system to determine who gets what, when. And multiple LSs will compete for it.

It's naive to think this won't happen. Sure, it's a new game and when it first starts, we'll all be noobs in a happy wonderland where no one discriminates and nobody knows what separates a good player from a bad one. But it won't take long for us to figure it out, figure out what the best builds are and the best, most efficient paths to get there. And it won't take long to figure out how to tell which players are following that path and which aren't, so we know who to invite for parties and include in our LSs.

Knowing this will happen eventually, the best thing to do is not hope that it never comes. Instead, try to nudge SE in a preferred direction while the game is still in alpha. But don't try to push them into making the utopia that some would like it to be, because it won't happen. We must be realistic. Think of it more as a controlled descent to keep SE from crash landing into an endgame scenario nobody wants. There are some things we can possibly influence for the better, but in the end, we'll still have to think about ourselves and how we want to stand apart and be elite.

I agree with this completely. There will ALWAYS be a best way to do things, to make it as efficient and fast as possible. This goes for everything, including cleaning our apartment. Sure, you can choose to take a "shortcut" in your cleaning by sweeping it under the mat, but eventually that'll be noticed, just like using retarded setups and gear in MMO's.

There's no way around it. Sure, you're free to sweep it under the mat if you want, but you shouldn't complain when people tell you that you need to stop being lazy and get it done.

[Jinko]

There will be levels of how people will notice though, I will imagine stats will be part of what sets people apart come end game, but if SE don't allow us to view others stats then you have basically brushed it under the carpet and its vanished.

[Isla]

Really looking forward to some more info about the DoM classes.

[Ryuushin]

I'm surprised there doesn't seem to be a class that focuses on white magic. Not necessarily cures but holy, banish, etc

[Jinko]

I'm surprised there doesn't seem to be a class that focuses on white magic. Not necessarily cures but holy, banish, etc

Thaumaturge has banish, holy (if it makes an appearance) is most likely going to end up on Thaumaturge as its astral magic aswell.

[Hyan]

I'm surprised there doesn't seem to be a class that focuses on white magic. Not necessarily cures but holy, banish, etc

Is there a class that focuses on anything?

[Uzor]

I'm surprised there doesn't seem to be a class that focuses on white magic. Not necessarily cures but holy, banish, etc

Because the classes officially revealed are all the classes that's going to be in the game?

We still don't know what Arcanist and Mystic do. Perhaps one of those will focus on healing magic. Out of the classes we have now, Conjurer seem to be the one focusing the most on healing magic, as it is the only class with a "Cure" spell.

Either way, I think the theory earlier in the thread about Mystic being a buffing job earlier in the thread is pretty accurate, and perhaps they will be the job using said "Precious Swords" found in the .dat.

I'm willing to bet most magic jobs will have some sort of healing ability, so if you want to be a pure healing character, you could level them all high enough to get said healing ability and equip it on your job. I don't think there will be one class that's purely healing focused, as I could see that class having a hard time soloing.

I'm theorizing that the way it will end up, is that if a class has good "healing traits" (If a class, for example, has better MP restorative skill, or better "class only" healing skills), this class will serve as a template for a healing character, and then various healing skills from other classes will be equipped to this one, and will then serve as a "White Mage".

[solracht]

There will always be a best way to do everything, and I agree with that.

However I think if implemented right, there's still room for personal choices. You won't be able to pick 20 random spells and make something that people will want, and it's silly to think so. However, if they don't let certain buffs and abilities stack, while making a lot of similar abilities, and in the end you only have to get let's say, 4-7 must-have skills, the rest become more of a matter of personal preference.

A lot of abilities could pretty much do the same thing, but come from different weapons or have shared cooldowns.

At this point differences between players become more cosmetic than anything else, but I think it's better than seeing everyone using the same abilities and weapons, because that's the way the other option could end.


Two small examples:

-A lot of abilities have "additional effect: increases attack power", if they don't let this effect stack, then suddenly you're only required to take one of those self-buffing abilities, rather than having to pick the 5 different skills that increase attack. In this example we assume they're all somewhat equal.

-If Skewer and Skull Sunder do the same amount of damage (high-ish), but you can't use both in a quick succession, the one you pick of the two will be up to you. This means you wouldn't see that many players with the same skills (since these skills would do the same thing), rather you'd see them using what they like (to an extent).

Maybe under this system everyone would have a high-damage skill, a medium-damage skill, and an attack-buff skill, but I think this is better than seeing everyone with Skewer, Thrust, and Red Lotus, for instance (or with all of the attack-buff abilities, if they stacked).

[Azurewrath]

Like someone said, for balance, all theyd have to do would be make the 'utsusemi' ability (If it exists/is made) cost like 15/20 of your AP.

You could have it, but it'd completely control your character and you'd have such little abilities you'd probably be pretty bad. But you could have it if you needed it in that specific boss fight. That'd be cool.

And does anyone know if they've said in the full version of the game, will they make you spend AP on your main class's abilities? Or are those automatically always active as long as you're on your main class? That'd be interesting. If you have to equip your own classes abilities, that'd make for a lot of interesting combos. Might have to give up some decent abilities so you can cure or something, if you're in a 2-3 man group or soloing, but on the other hand, if you're in a big group with healers, you could equip your main abilities and not have to worry about Cure etc, and be more effective. I like that

[Vacht]

This is my first post in this forum; so if its been discussed Im sorry I looked and didn't see anything on this yet.

SE has said that jobs are weapon based and that your physical lvl and job lvl are different but your skills are dependent on the weapon you have; so there is tiers of weapons (like in Final Fantasy 13 there is different tiers and ranks for weapons) so if this is the case would it be probable that say a NM has a weapon with a certain "skill" or "ability" that you can learn from that weapon?

You should read the closed 250 page thread

If they're smart they'll exploit the very simple strength of the customization mechanic they're employing... if an ability becomes so vital that it's expected you to use it, up the cost. If an ability sucks so badly that you're chastised for using it, lower the cost. I've been advocating this system for as long as the game was in development for this very simple reason: it's so fucking easy to balance, even SE can manage it.

Itd be nice if things were always that simple.

[Tulun]

I do hope that, regardless of how they set abilities up, they are willing to CHANGE them.

Overall, it seems in 11, they really let a lot of shit stick; I think there was an admission that Utsusemi was way more powerful than they expected. Same with shit like elegy. (though to combat this they just made some mobs immune... yay?)
If that is the case... then change it.
Will there be bitching? sure. But overall, the willingness to adjust shit is what will likely keep the game balanced overtime.

[Battlecat]

Making a useless ability cost 1ap instead of 5 doesn't suddenly make it usefull, just means you're wasting 4 less ap

[Lucavi]

Like someone said, for balance, all theyd have to do would be make the 'utsusemi' ability (If it exists/is made) cost like 15/20 of your AP.

Make it useless like Edge in FFIV and I'd like it in. Another MMO where all blood-tanking tanks are rendered undesired through most of the content because of broken shadow-spamming = no thanks.

[Katlan]

What's so bad about skills or gear that everyone must have lest they be considered gimp? Simply get the skill or gear in question and stop being such a noob.

While I don't care so much about must-have skills/gear that just anyone can get, I do hope there'll be gear that will give certain players distinction and set them apart from the casuals. From gear that's not too hard for someone in a good LS, but impossible for casuals to get like haidate, to gear that even people in good LSs can take years to get, like ridill/ebody, certain AF2s, salvage gear, etc. The last thing anyone wants is to be just like everyone else, and the way to be different is not through personal choices and customization but rather through having a solid, capable LS with a decent point system that can get claims and getting lucky with drops when you're up next for a rare item.

you have said this many times in previous threads, we get it. The game will have end game gear and I'm sure it will vary from being easy to get to being elusive. I just wouldn't count on the best of the best being exclusive to 21-24hr pop HNM's that 100's of 100's of ppl will be camping

[Lunarhawk]

Maybe the best stuff will be a super rare drop from the boss mob of an end-game 15 person quest you can only do once per day.
That would still make it decently hard to get.