New Classes Discovered

[Ashton]

Like someone said, for balance, all theyd have to do would be make the 'utsusemi' ability (If it exists/is made) cost like 15/20 of your AP.

Just throw on a long enough cooldown and be done with it. Third eye tanking was not even remotely an option pre-seigan, but it was still a nice way for a SAM to not get totally raped after pulling threat every now and then.

[Jinko]

There isn't anything to say that utsusemi needs to work like FF11 though, it could just work like a 5 minute buff which gives the user a 30% chance to generate a shadow.

Think of it like an Evasion boost.

[Vacht]

There isn't anything to say that utsusemi needs to work like FF11 though, it could just work like a 5 minute buff which gives the user a 30% chance to generate a shadow.

Think of it like an Evasion boost.

Drop the utsu b/s, they arent adding that broken ass ability again lol

[Khamsin]

Drop the utsu b/s, they arent adding that broken ass ability again lol

We don't know that yet. There are also some classes yet to be accounted for. One of them may have utsu that is 100% absorb, and able to be used often enough to never take any damage, and quickly enough to cast it between hits. But to balance it, they might make it cost gil or items instead of MP or TP.

[mai ikari]

We don't know that yet. There are also some classes yet to be accounted for. One of them may have utsu that is 100% absorb, and able to be used often enough to never take any damage, and quickly enough to cast it between hits. But to balance it, they might make it cost gil or items instead of MP or TP.

This... this has to be trolling. I can't think of any other explanation. "SE will add NIN and it will be just as broken and unbalancing as FFXI because they have learned absolutely nothing."

[Battlecat]

Not anymore trolling than any other completely baseless speculation (which is most of it) that goes on in BGXIV

[Katlan]

baseless speculation

Take everything ppl say for what it is, speculation

[Khamsin]

There are some things in FFXI that some thought were broken, but that others enjoyed. Who's to say whether SE believes that such things were broken, or beneficial?

Just because someone thinks something is broken doesn't mean it won't be in FFXIV, because not everyone thinks the same way. Utsu, and 21-24 worldspawn HNMs, and other such things may be in FFXIV and people will like it, and others will hate it.

[Vacht]

I dont want to ruin the viagra for everyone. NiN will come back just as it was in XI*

[Kachi]

The people who really think that there's always going to be one best setup display a staggering lack of understanding game mechanics. Even in some of the most unbalanced games, you rarely have that. What you often end up with is a few archetypal configurations in the metagame. One may have the best average, but it is never the best across all situations, which doesn't mean a whole helluva lot if it's only ahead by a few % in a PvE game where you actually get to -choose- your opponents.

This should be obvious to any player of FFXI. For example, there is no DD job that does the best damage against every single mob, and whether you can change gear or not, there isn't one best gear configuration for every opponent, either.

If you think it's an inevitability because you expect poor design, that's one thing, but if you think it's an impossibility, you're just wrong.

Making a useless ability cost 1ap instead of 5 doesn't suddenly make it usefull, just means you're wasting 4 less ap

Fallacious reasoning. Abilities that cost 1 AP are already useful. That's why you have to think a little harder about trading 5 of them for one ability. If five isn't enough, you can just keep adding cost until the loss of total ability and versatility isn't worth it, and if it's still not enough, then you just adjust the ability itself.

Your mistake is in thinking that 1 AP= useless ability, when a useless ability should be 0 AP if anything. Or better yet, it should be made useful.

[solracht]

There'll be a best way to do things. That's different than saying that the same best setup for one event will be the best setup for every event. I don't even think anyone said, or really thinks that there'll be one setup that will win at everything.

Different events and fights have and will have different optimal setups.

That still doesn't mean you'll have real choice on how to build your character, which is the argument that started last page.

Assuming you want choice, what we have to hope for is that the system is so well-thought that the differences between setups are so minimal that most people won't bother chasing the optimal builds, or won't feel behind if they don't. ie, the difference between picking the ability you like and the "best" one is so small that you can safely pick what you enjoy.

Whether you want to be that optimist or not is up to you.

[Vitglance]

Your essentially saying Imbalance is native to game design.

That's hardly true, games have been balanced for years before we'd ever heard of television, and they never had to rely on making differences inconsequential to do it. Board games, card games, and tabletop games may have an easier time of it not being natively shackled to RPG elements. But there's nothing going on there structurally that can't be stolen, forced to develop stockholm syndrome and join MMOs in their life of crime.

At the end of the day your gaming experience is all a mathematical construct. Every opportunity for flaw is a thing that was lovingly crafted, not randomly placed by the hand of god. Somethings may occur outside the developer's expectation, but nothing is outside the developer's control.

To paint it like a force of nature washes their hands of rightly deserved blame.

[Kupo]

I know some of you are saying there will always be one skill (not gear) configuration that is best. And who knows, you may be right.

But I am hoping that with the game design of being able to choose from multiple sub abilities (and not tied to one sub job), the builds could be a little more like Mixed Martial Arts. In MMA, some guys focus purely on stand-up and some focus purely on ground fighting. Many are balanced but with a focus one way or another. Then there are further levels- some stand up guys purely punch while others use kicks and knees. Some groundfighters focus on "ground and pound" while others focus on submissions.

My point is that there is no "best way" in MMA. You never watch it and say, "Oh the guy who focuses on submissions will always win". Now maybe this can't translate well to gaming. I don't know. But this is what I think a lot of us are hoping for- where the skill of the player makes the difference more than the "build".

I'm not saying people can't gimp themselves but I am saying I hope there is no definite "best build". Afterall, whose to really say that a tank with a damage shield is better or worse than a tank that self heals. And whose to say a tank with evasion boosts will be better or worse than a tank with more damage capability. It will probably depend on the ever changing circumstances in battle.

[Tulun]

There will be builds that are *generally* effective across the board, though.

I think it's not necessarily a useful discussion, though, as respecing may not be a big deal in 14. Re-changing your stats and so on may be as simple as visiting an npc in town with little to no cost.

Or it could cost a lot, or have increasing returns (like in WoW).

The hope is that there is enough versatile mob fights that having at least 1 of each type of job isn't necessarily a bad idea, or 1 of each could offer something you'd like. That is really all people care about: 11 had a good deal of pigeon holing in certain areas... certain jobs often had the advantage in 98% of the situations compared to their peers.

[Azurewrath]

I know some of you are saying there will always be one skill (not gear) configuration that is best. And who knows, you may be right.

But I am hoping that with the game design of being able to choose from multiple sub abilities (and not tied to one sub job), the builds could be a little more like Mixed Martial Arts. In MMA, some guys focus purely on stand-up and some focus purely on ground fighting. Many are balanced but with a focus one way or another. Then there are further levels- some stand up guys purely punch while others use kicks and knees. Some groundfighters focus on "ground and pound" while others focus on submissions.

My point is that there is no "best way" in MMA. You never watch it and say, "Oh the guy who focuses on submissions will always win". Now maybe this can't translate well to gaming. I don't know. But this is what I think a lot of us are hoping for- where the skill of the player makes the difference more than the "build".

I'm not saying people can't gimp themselves but I am saying I hope there is no definite "best build". Afterall, whose to really say that a tank with a damage shield is better or worse than a tank that self heals. And whose to say a tank with evasion boosts will be better or worse than a tank with more damage capability. It will probably depend on the ever changing circumstances in battle.

yeah but then it comes down to the specific persons strengths and weaknesses ;p in an MMO, everyones the same.

Actually, with the new stat allocations, i take that back

[Battlecat]

Abilities that cost 1 AP are already useful.

I'm going to step out on a limb here and say that you never leveled BLU to 75 in XI probably lol A good number of the highest spell point cost BLU spells are almost completely useless to any build, let alone the 1 point cost spells.

There's always useless abilities. And I mean useless to a specific build not the game as a whole (though there's usually 1 or 2 of those as well lol). For instance, if you're setting up a zerg build pugilist and you choose to put in steal over a damage dealing ability... well steal doesn't help your zerg build at all so you've just wasted AP no matter how many AP it actually cost. Unless you're completely out of abilities that would increase your damage and you're sitting at 19/20 ap, there's absolutely no point in putting in steal for 1ap (I know this assumes a lot, but it's just to illustrate my point). However if you're farming and you put in a damage ability over steal (I guess this also assumes there's something worth stealing from the mobs you're farming and that you already have equipped all the abilities you need to kill them effectively) then you've just wasted AP again. There's always a best way to do everything. I'm not saying other ways can't be used, but use your brain at least and don't rock the old war/whm ghetto pally

[Loaar]

Ideally, with cross class skills and penalties there are more than 1 effective way to skin the proverbial cat.

For example:

Your a gladiator, you want to level a DoM class to get access to heals of some sort.

(These skills are just hypothetical)

You could level Conjurer to get cure, which is the most effective heal, but its cooldown as a cross class skill on Gladiator is say 5mins.

You could level Thaumaturge and get a HP drain spell, thats less effective than cure but only has a 2.5min cooldown as a cross class skill.

I'd like to see the system work that way. Neither option is ideal, but both work in thier own way. There doesn't need to be a "best" skill options for cross class skills.

I'm all for your own class skills having a "best" setup, I just dont want cross class skills being absolute must haves for everyone. Having a type of ability (like the heal example) is fine, but have multiple ways to get the same result so its not just forcing everyone in the game to level 1 specific job to get a particular cross class skill.

[Boom]

Utsusemi will be back. On a related note, every mobs' attack ignores shadows.

[Lunarhawk]

Ideally, with cross class skills and penalties there are more than 1 effective way to skin the proverbial cat.

For example:

Your a gladiator, you want to level a DoM class to get access to heals of some sort.

(These skills are just hypothetical)

Hypothetically I'm assuming it already has a heal just on the basis that both pug and marauder do. Just sayin.

[Battlecat]

Hypothetically I'm assuming it already has a heal just on the basis that both pug and marauder do. Just sayin.

You've missed the point completely. He's talking about balancing cross class abilities. Has absolutely nothing to do with actually curing anything.

In other news: Aegis Boon (II): Recover behind the safety of your shield, converting a portion of damage sustained when blocking into HP.