New Classes Discovered

[sephir]

Do you think we will have to buy scrolls again or will they be learned through equipment? I'm somewhat intrigued in how SE will implement this.

[Xux]

The alpha had them learned by level like abilities but who knows if they'll ruin it for the retail version.

[Omniyoji]

I'm pretty sure they'll keep it the way it is currently.

[arus2001]

I'll never really understand ragging on noobs who want to snowflake, but in turn, said people also want to be snowflake with gear or something only a select few should be worthy to acquire.

Maybe I'm just weird, but I'd rather a company focus on creating content the majority can experience and enjoy rather than catering to a vocal minority that doesn't feel challenged or something because they eat, breathe, and sleep the game.

Now and then they can toss these guys a bone, sure, but it should never be the focus. If it absolutely MUST exist to some degree, then I would prefer it in the form of difficulty levels for instances where either the end result gets you access to a slightly better loot pool, or just better chances at the original for your effort. Yet, if concerns remain for everyone eventually looking the same, well, I'd call that a side-effect of the sidegrade system XI used. Obsolescence may eventually lead to a new look-alike mode, but the leet would be there a lot sooner than the scrubs if they're truly as good as they believe.

[Kachi]

I'm going to step out on a limb here and say that you never leveled BLU to 75 in XI probably lol A good number of the highest spell point cost BLU spells are almost completely useless to any build, let alone the 1 point cost spells.

There's always useless abilities. And I mean useless to a specific build not the game as a whole (though there's usually 1 or 2 of those as well lol). For instance, if you're setting up a zerg build pugilist and you choose to put in steal over a damage dealing ability... well steal doesn't help your zerg build at all so you've just wasted AP no matter how many AP it actually cost. Unless you're completely out of abilities that would increase your damage and you're sitting at 19/20 ap, there's absolutely no point in putting in steal for 1ap (I know this assumes a lot, but it's just to illustrate my point). However if you're farming and you put in a damage ability over steal (I guess this also assumes there's something worth stealing from the mobs you're farming and that you already have equipped all the abilities you need to kill them effectively) then you've just wasted AP again. There's always a best way to do everything. I'm not saying other ways can't be used, but use your brain at least and don't rock the old war/whm ghetto pally

I'm talking about XIV. By default, abilities so far are 1 AP.

To look to BLU in XI is a strawman. You can't compare a broken and neglected system to one that is actually given consideration when it comes to balance. BLU was far from the first iteration of this system, btw, and it has worked in other games just fine.

Steal is a cheap example, btw, because it generally has no HP end. i.e., HP is the metric by which almost all abilities are measured, because the goal is always to maintain your HP and deplete the enemy's. Even an ability like Refresh has an HP end. Steal, on the other hand, has no HP end. It doesn't do damage, it doesn't enable damage to be done, and it doesn't allow more damage to be done over time. Make it do damage or create another effect, and it's a different story altogether.

So Steal is one of very few examples that you could argue is useless, and that really depends on what Steal does.

And I won't QFT, but I agree with Vitglance and arus2001 wholeheartedly.

[darkscion0]

The great thing with the FFXIV system is that it's going to make it a lot easier to put together parties. Instead of requiring specific jobs, we'll probably more be looking for the party to contain certain skills and ensuring at least someone in the party has skills X, Y and Z.

Need some off heals? Anyone in the group that's acquired a heal spell can equip it and pitch in. Missing a certain debuff or buff? Someone can probably socket one in. They may not be optimized by way of stats to use it, but the skill would at least be there.

I'm just wondering how much of an impact the base stats are going to make. Would be pretty interesting to see... say a enfeebling archer or other hybrids. Of course the effectiveness of such would depending greatly on how critical stats are to skills as splitting your stat distribution between DEX and INT for example may end up gimping you on both sides.

[Battlecat]

So your arguments are that b/c the few earliest level abilities are 1ap, they all will be 1ap, all abilities (excepting steal) that cost 1ap will have the same "HP end" (which i took to mean either curing/saving/or removing a certain amount of HP), and finally because my 2 stated situations with steal prove my point perfectly... they don't count?

ya know what, screw it, you're right bro. Everyone is going to be completely equal no matter what stupid decisions they make. I officially give up on BGXIV.

[Harlequin]

I'm pretty sure they'll keep it the way it is currently.

Thank god. Spell scrolls were so time consuming/expensive for people just starting out. I can't count how many times I bought people their scrolls or helped them camp the mob for it because they couldn't do it on their own. Learning spells naturally like FF6 and the other old ones is just better.

[Plow]

Ideally, with cross class skills and penalties there are more than 1 effective way to skin the proverbial cat.

For example:

Your a gladiator, you want to level a DoM class to get access to heals of some sort.

(These skills are just hypothetical)

You could level Conjurer to get cure, which is the most effective heal, but its cooldown as a cross class skill on Gladiator is say 5mins.

You could level Thaumaturge and get a HP drain spell, thats less effective than cure but only has a 2.5min cooldown as a cross class skill.

I'd like to see the system work that way. Neither option is ideal, but both work in thier own way. There doesn't need to be a "best" skill options for cross class skills.

I'm all for your own class skills having a "best" setup, I just dont want cross class skills being absolute must haves for everyone. Having a type of ability (like the heal example) is fine, but have multiple ways to get the same result so its not just forcing everyone in the game to level 1 specific job to get a particular cross class skill.

Is it bad that all I could think while reading all of this was "Buttersheep"?

The fact of the matter is people figure out what works the best and they use it. MMO developers are nowhere remotely near the point of balancing to the point where "there is no best." Might as well get used to it, nobody has even made it to where there aren't best *classes*, let alone best abilities to use.

[Malacite]

tl;dr

Any concrete info/sources? When I saw Mystic in the OP I thought "HOLY SHIT MYSTIC KNIGHT?!" but it doesn't seem like it... it's the one job I always wanted to see in XI (>; ;<)

[Kirb]

tl;dr

Any concrete info/sources? When I saw Mystic in the OP I thought "HOLY SHIT MYSTIC KNIGHT?!" but it doesn't seem like it... it's the one job I always wanted to see in XI (>; ;<)

Mystic is also what they renamed Oracle in the FFT remake for the PSP.


The source is pretty concrete, as it's in the dats.

[Malacite]

. _ . I just really, really miss Spellblade from FFV (Fuck enspells, not the same thing at all)

[Vacht]

Is it bad that all I could think while reading all of this was "Buttersheep"?

The fact of the matter is people figure out what works the best and they use it. MMO developers are nowhere remotely near the point of balancing to the point where "there is no best." Might as well get used to it, nobody has even made it to where there aren't best *classes*, let alone best abilities to use.

Yeah... the only way to avoid what's considered 'best' is to only do what you like, and even then that is construed as what is best for you. No idea of right or wrong, best or worst is like... zen 'ohmmmm' stuff.

[bluefan]

. _ . I just really, really miss Spellblade from FFV (Fuck enspells, not the same thing at all)

Amen.

[Kachi]

So your arguments are that b/c the few earliest level abilities are 1ap, they all will be 1ap, all abilities (excepting steal) that cost 1ap will have the same "HP end" (which i took to mean either curing/saving/or removing a certain amount of HP), and finally because my 2 stated situations with steal prove my point perfectly... they don't count?

ya know what, screw it, you're right bro. Everyone is going to be completely equal no matter what stupid decisions they make. I officially give up on BGXIV.

u mad?

No, my argument is that IF abilities that cost 1 AP have similar HP ends, THEN the abilities will be more or less balanced. Your stated situations with steal "don't count" because they're based on assumptions that aren't necessarily true. You're assuming that Steal is more useless than other abilities that cost 1AP. It's a reasonable assumption, but is also basically the exception to the rule. Virtually every other ability will have an HP end.

That also operates under the assumption that 1AP is the minimum. Though it's exceedingly unlikely, abilities can be made to be free or even give AP upon equip. I tend to think it's simpler just to make 1 AP the minimum.

Basically, you completely missed the point, which was not that FFXIV will be perfectly balanced for every buttersheep snowflake, but that it could be fairly close to that.

Is it bad that all I could think while reading all of this was "Buttersheep"?

The fact of the matter is people figure out what works the best and they use it. MMO developers are nowhere remotely near the point of balancing to the point where "there is no best." Might as well get used to it, nobody has even made it to where there aren't best *classes*, let alone best abilities to use.

That's only because developers are stupid, not because it's hard to do. It is, as someone pointed out, essentially a math problem. It's one that developers make no attempt to solve, and instead employ a trial and error method of what "feels right." The historical problem has always been that these things then become difficult to adjust without breaking one way or the other. However, it's a lot easier for stupid developers to adjust the cost of broken abilities via trial and error with an AP system.

Case in point, XI had no easy means of doing that. There was no similar adjustable metric to fix a broken class like RNG when ranged damage was simply a function of delay and the damage formula, so all problems were ingrained in the game's mechanics.

But XI barely even tried. XI's attempt to make support jobs like refreshers and healers important party roles was to give them INSANE HP ends. What they should have done, and where it seems they're learning from their mistakes, was given more balanced interaction effects, rather than Refresher (massive HP end bonus)-> Healer (very large HP end bonus)-> Tank (big HP end bonus)-> Damage (necessary but relatively small HP end). It was a trickle down system that meant your party was screwed without "rich" jobs.

[Skeptic]

SE hasn't even confirmed any of this madness.

[Elcura]

Balancing - easier said than done bro.

[Kyrra]

Balancing - easier said than done bro.

Couldn't agree more. The only way to have everyone balanced is to have every race have the exact same attributes and for all classes to have the exact same abilities (making them just 1 class). When you start throwing in all the variables that MMOs put into a box, there will always be imbalance.

[Enos]

Couldn't agree more. The only way to have everyone balanced is to have every race have the exact same attributes and for all classes to have the exact same abilities (making them just 1 class). When you start throwing in all the variables that MMOs put into a box, there will always be imbalance.

This dude speaks truth. Nothing will ever be balanced. I mean comon, I did a SMN burn pt today and went lv11-50 on brd in a few hrs (corsair reset etc). There will always be some outbalanced shit, its just part of MMOs.

[Loaar]

This dude speaks truth. Nothing will ever be balanced. I mean comon, I did a SMN burn pt today and went lv11-50 on brd in a few hrs (corsair reset etc). There will always be some outbalanced shit, its just part of MMOs.

11-50?