New Classes Discovered

[Jinko]

There will always be obsessive people whether it be in real life or in a video game, you just have to learn to get along or ignore them.

I for one support min/maxing it adds more depth to a game, take it or leave it though nobody is forcing anyone to do it.

[Atsuro]

You have to realize, some people's enjoyment in an MMO comes from upgrading their character to be the best it can be. People enjoy different things.

I agree with this wholeheartedly. While I played FFXI, I felt that my greatest accomplishment was my Samurai, and in fact, I only ever leveled 2 jobs to 75. During my time on the game, I put most of my effort into making my SAM the best that it could be. I wasn't the best, but I felt that I was above par and I was happy with it.

I had several friends who leveled several jobs, and more often than not, they would actually begin work on leveling a new job almost immediately after they had finished leveling a previous one, even before they capped out (or even moderately worked on) merits for that particular job.

You could easily argue that they were more effective players or LS members because they were so varied, but I felt my greatest sense of pride by focusing on proficiency in one single job.

On a side note, the loophole to this I did exploit was that my other 75 was Bard, and I was usually asked to play it, so in the end, my having only leveled 2 jobs was somewhat irrelevant. Still, always had more fun when I was able to play my job of choice, and I think that's at least somewhat true for everyone.

[Kupo]

First off, gimp is a relative term. If you've made enough poor decisions that you can't keep up with someone of the same class that has made mostly good decisions, then you're a gimp. This includes battle decisions. I've met plenty of extremely well geared people that are just as gimp as thieves that full time Denali Bonnet instead of using the better and easily obtained wally turban. I don't think everyone has to go out and get relic weapons or anything. Just make wise decisions when choosing gear and abilities. If you're going to let something silly like roleplaying or being too lazy to level sub classes stop you from improving at all, yeah, you're a gimp and you shouldn't expect to be included in higher tier endgame activities that require everyone operating at close to max to complete.

Anyway, the point to my post was that it doesn't matter if you're gimp or not. You don't have to get invites and potentially deal with d-bag endgame guys to get to level cap, cause you can just level solo or in small groups. They are specifically adding content that casual players and people that don't want to have to min/max can do. So there's absolutely no point in bitching about it. A lot of people call there being a need to min/max "unbalanced" but there's a crap load of people that enjoy doing it! It's what a lot of people find so intriguing about MMOs! There are quite a few people that don't enjoy it as well, that doesn't mean you dumb down the game so that everyone is pretty much the same, you add in different content that those people will enjoy as well! /end discussion

Hi Battlecat,

I don't think many would disagree with you that if someone makes poor choices then they would be considered gimp. The question is... what is a poor choice?

I don't think the people in this thread are saying that every combo would/should work. I think they are saying that, for example, a Gladiator who subs heal may be equal to a Gladiator who subs Stoneskin and that there may not be a cookie cutter Gladiator build that is "the best".

(And yes, I know the Gladiator could sub both Stoneskin and Heal but I am trying to keep the premise simple)

[Reiryuu]

There will always be obsessive people whether it be in real life or in a video game, you just have to learn to get along or ignore them.

I for one support min/maxing it adds more depth to a game, take it or leave it though nobody is forcing anyone to do it.

Perhaps your definition of depth and mine are different, but wouldn't having one agreed upon "max" limit the depth as everyone, well OK most people, would flock towards that one "max" for their character thus making everyone of class X essentially the same with only a different skin in the long run?

[Jinko]

What as opposed to FF11 where everyone has basically the same stats and also look almost identical.

SE have hinted in interviews they plan to add a lot more armour and weapons to the game, which leads me to think that there will be room to adjust your stats around your gear and vice versa, add to that the sheer amount of skill variations which could be possible and I don't see what you're so concerned about.

[Reiryuu]

What as opposed to FF11 where everyone has basically the same stats and also look almost identical.

SE have hinted in interviews they plan to add a lot more armour and weapons to the game, which leads me to think that there will be room to adjust your stats around your gear and vice versa, add to that the sheer amount of skill variations which could be possible and I don't see what you're so concerned about.

Never said anything about min/maxing in FFXI. Just wondering how min/maxing is supposed to add all this depth to a game when all it does is encourage people to configure themselves one way. This is why several people are arguing that there should be several different ways to build any given job.

DAoC, for a while at least, had a rather nice system in their specializations. Most classes had a couple of different builds that were really viable in RVR. some better than others, but some shined really well in open RVR, others in Forts/Keep sieges, etc. Of course, this all went to hell after ToA but... it was fun while it lasted. =/

Edit: Let's put it this way. Say I'm playing a Conjurer.

If I wanted to be a nuking Conjurer, I am going to be getting different stats and different equipment than if I were going to be a healing conjurer.

But what if I wanted to be an all purpose conjurer? That conjurer that the party knew could flip flop from DMG to Healing whenever the party needed me to do so. Sure, I might nuke for less damage then MegaNukesD00d, and I may heal less than BigHealzLoL but should I be wrong for wanting to fulfill my role as a Conjurer to it's fullest by being able to switch from one to the other on a fly and change of equipment?

I think people on the forums here are really hoping to see that kind of depth in the game. The ability to chose to be one extreme, the next, or be perfectly viable as someone who can go back and forth and do various different tasks efficiently, but perhaps not "optimally".

[Loaar]

I just hope that since Conjurer at this stage is the only "native" healer that players who gear and spec as a nuking Conjurer aren't going to be shunned for not going the full healing path.

[Battlecat]

blah blah blah long post best of nuke + healing conjurer blah blah blah

See... I don't think you get the min/maxing thing very well. You SHOULD have the capability to do both, and do both very well. You SHOULD have a Nuking gear set and a Curing gear set. Based on what I've seen of Archer so far, I'd say if you're an Archer you should have a DD setup AND a crowd control setup, and both should be well geared. It's no different than expecting a RDM in XI to have an enfeebling set, nuke set, cure set, idle set, stoneskin set, etc etc etc. You've got to be able to do everything your class can do, and do it as well as you can possibly manage. At least that's what you should do if you're min/maxing. Not saying you HAVE to do that to enjoy the game. This is all really neither here nor there. If that's not how you want to play the game, then don't. Play it how you want, find like minded people and do whatever level of content you're able to.

P.S. Depending on how they implement respecing attribute points, however, could potentially limit the usefulness of whatever the off spec is, so I'd definitely pour your attributes into the one you find the most engaging personally and sticking with it until it's discovered otherwise.

[Reiryuu]

See... I don't think you get the min/maxing thing very well. You SHOULD have the capability to do both, and do both very well. You SHOULD have a Nuking gear set and a Curing gear set. Based on what I've seen of Archer so far, I'd say if you're an Archer you should have a DD setup AND a crowd control setup, and both should be well geared. It's no different than expecting a RDM in XI to have an enfeebling set, nuke set, cure set, idle set, stoneskin set, etc etc etc. You've got to be able to do everything your class can do, and do it as well as you can possibly manage. At least that's what you should do if you're min/maxing. Not saying you HAVE to do that to enjoy the game. This is all really neither here nor there. If that's not how you want to play the game, then don't. Play it how you want, find like minded people and do whatever level of content you're able to.

P.S. Depending on how they implement respecing attribute points, however, could potentially limit the usefulness of whatever the off spec is, so I'd definitely pour your attributes into the one you find the most engaging personally and sticking with it until it's discovered otherwise.

See that is what I don't agree with. ZOMG you need to have a whole set of gear so your stoneskin is 5% more effective!!!11!one! ZOMG what do you mean you don't have that you sux! I mean come on what the hell is that bullcrap? That is the one thing I didn't really care for in FFXI everyone expecting you to have a whole set of gear for one spell or some hogwash and competing with people who needed gear upgrades for more than just one spell so they could macro it to get their +1% damage on some random ability.

Sure, I used my staves and I had some gear swap macros, but not as extensively as some of those rabid people who would build entire sets of gear around 1 single spell. All my stuff was for multiple purposes.

I am not really happy SE, so far, has put the major cure on the Conj, as far as we know, as it seems to be the primary elemental nuker as well. While if I were playing a Conjurer, I would probably try to make sure I had nuking and curing equipment, I would certainly not want the community to point their fingers at all Conjurers and say YOU MUST HAVE IT!!!11!!

I would much rather see groups looking for healing spec'd conjurers, nuke spec'd conjurers and those who chose to try to maintain stats and gear for both roles to be able to pick and choose which roll they want to be or adjust as the party's needs change. Personally, I would really like to have SE come out with a Healing/Buffing class so I don't have to worry so much about that, but... oh well. Some people just don't like healing, you know? They shouldn't have to feel forced to.

[Gokulo]

Man up, I've meet people that had aquaveil sets.

[Loaar]

Dont forget that you can't change gear in combat in FFXIV, so if you have a nuking set and a healing set then you have to pick what your going to do before you engage.

[Hyan]

Dont forget that you can't change gear in combat in FFXIV, so if you have a nuking set and a healing set then you have to pick what your going to do before you engage.

Are you sure about this? Just checking.

[Tulun]

Having loads of gear for swaps is fine IF inventory isn't an issue.

The only time having situational gear sucked was when space was tight... which to be honest was a rather annoying problem in ff11.

If 14 allows some sort of swapping but rather free inventory space, I could care less.

[Kiarax]

Are you sure about this? Just checking.

You get a "You can't do that now" error if you try to swap during combat currently. Whilst I certainly expect that'll be how it works in full release too, it's not set in stone obviously.

[Loaar]

Are you sure about this? Just checking.

Yes, 100% sure.

[arus2001]

Ideally, every class should probably have a defensive, offensive, and balanced state where stat distribution or equipment choices better serve you. However, what a lot of MMOs have never really seemed to accomplish is making going the defensive route appealing. From an EXP perspective, you're not killing as fast. Yet, as an offensive type, you could probably kill so quickly that your lacking defense isn't a concern. On paper, one might think the defensive type could go for stronger prey, but the hitch here is they probably wind up needing even longer to kill and the disparity of one big kill for 1000 EXP in 5 minutes is still trumped by the dude killing 10 mobs for 125 EXP apiece in the same span and probably for less risk.

To some degree, I don't think this can be solved without tactical gimmicks that benefit defensive styles. This would make some mobs more preferred for these types, but that's also the case in more general terms (See: Colibri). If proper blocking or avoidance could somehow lead to a monster killing themselves or at least drastically increasing their vulnerability where a soloing offensive type couldn't hope to pull off, then you might see a greater spread in types. Encounters designed for parties could, in turn, include various mob states to favor these styles in response to how the party is fighting. Complex, maybe, but said triggers don't need to be too complicated (X damage over Y time = A mode if X >= Z, B if not). We kinda see some of this with the Fomor NMs they added in XI a few patches back.

[Reiryuu]

Awesome. Gear swap macros are dead!

I am content. ^^

[Hyan]

Awesome. Gear swap macros are dead!

I am content. ^^

It kinda made the endgame a lot better though. Makes me wonder how they're gonna implement it this time.

[bluefan]

Awesome. Gear swap macros are dead!

I am content. ^^

As am I. Always found it ridiculous that you had to option to gear swap for every spell/ability in XI.

It kinda made the endgame a lot better though. Makes me wonder how they're gonna implement it this time.

I think that's where the increased party sizes comes in. Seems like weapons will be there mainly to determine our classes, and our character stats/abilities will be more beneficial then equipment.

Just my speculation of course, but I'm sick of having characters worth be decided on what gear they're wearing. It's why I never liked gear swapping in XI, and why I hate how WoW now. It's just all about gear.

[Reiryuu]

@Hyan
I will respectfully agree to disagree with you there.

When parsers came out and all the people were swapping gear left and right and people were fighting over gear to use in macros... I just totally started getting disgusted with FFXI. Maybe I just ran into all the a$$hats, but I really felt that parsers, all the gear swapping and that brought the worst out of people in XI.

Yet, I've been wanting to go back to the game... but it's too much of a hassle for me to get things set up again. I have an NA account, but usually run the JP client so I can group and speak with the JP players as... these days that's the time I usually play.

Hehehe. added the @ since bluefan got a post in before I replied.