New Classes Discovered

[Elcura]

Competition breeds excellence. The best parties I've been in that raked in the most exp/hr were all DDs trying to outdamage each other. In the end, it didn't really matter who won, because the party had a shit load of merits.

Swapping gear made people better, so it made endgame better as well. It just sounds like you hate being good at the game, or you hate the people who are good at the game. That was the way the play XI, its the most effective way to make yourself better. Of course, part of that is knowing what you need to swap and why.

You didn't have to have a set for every ability. I wouldn't bother with a Stoneskin set macro unless I knew I was fighting something that required Stoneskin to be up most of the time, and it not being up would make me waste MP on curing. It was all mostly situational, the only thing I hated was nothing being able to organize gear properly and swapping jobs was a pain.

When people discover ways of being awesome in XIV, will you hate that as well?

[Reiryuu]

To be honest? I just hate a$$hats lol. As such, anything that increased the number of a$$hats I had to deal with in game or anything that they ranted about has negative connotations with me.

You can be good at a game without having uber gear. I don't mind people who want to get better gear, hell I like getting better gear when I play too. But I don't like the people who will claim they need item X for their macro when another player could use and would wear that item more than just once.

I also feel that it's kind of silly to go out and fight in Salvage, Sky, HNMs, or what have you just to get 1 item that you're going to swap into a macro so that you can boost your damage with 1 skill by 1%. I don't really mind parsers or people with them, but IMO I ran into more a$$hats when parsers became normal than I did when they weren't fully developed.

But back onto the subject at hand even though this thread is completely derailed by this, I really hope that classes have more options in FFXIV and that even if uberelited00d01274 thinks that BBB build is better for TTT class, that PPP build for TTT class is just as good if not better in some situations. And I also hope that each class has several of those combinations to promote diversity in the class/skill/etc. pool.

I guess what I'm trying to say here is I would much rather players be judged by how they play and not what they wear.

[Hyan]

To be honest? I just hate a$$hats lol. As such, anything that increased the number of a$$hats I had to deal with in game or anything that they ranted about has negative connotations with me.

You can be good at a game without having uber gear. I don't mind people who want to get better gear, hell I like getting better gear when I play too. But I don't like the people who will claim they need item X for their macro when another player could use and would wear that item more than just once.

I also feel that it's kind of silly to go out and fight in Salvage, Sky, HNMs, or what have you just to get 1 item that you're going to swap into a macro so that you can boost your damage with 1 skill by 1%. I don't really mind parsers or people with them, but IMO I ran into more a$$hats when parsers became normal than I did when they weren't fully developed.

But back onto the subject at hand even though this thread is completely derailed by this, I really hope that classes have more options in FFXIV and that even if uberelited00d01274 thinks that BBB build is better for TTT class, that PPP build for TTT class is just as good if not better in some situations. And I also hope that each class has several of those combinations to promote diversity in the class/skill/etc. pool.

I guess what I'm trying to say here is I would much rather players be judged by how they play and not what they wear.

To be honest, your problem lies with gear based progression and not really the fact that you can change equipment. After some point you can't become better at the game without getting better stats, and the way you get stats in XI (and possibly XIV) is pretty straightforward... with merits and gear.

I think it was great that most pieces of equipment had some use, and almost no item was completely useless. When SE takes away ability to swap equipment, they also make lot of gear useless because there will be "the best" set, and everything else is inferior. With the way XI endgame worked, I doubt it can be the same in XIV.. which can be a problem, if SE decides to do something completely different endgame wise and they'd just ignore all the experience they gained from running the system in XI for years. While we might not see another fuck up like Kings, there's still much bigger chance for the devs to not have enough hindsight and screw up some event because of it. And since it's almost impossible to predict every possible problem when implementing a new system, I wouldn't blame them if that happens. It just sounds risky.

But really, gear swaps or not, the problem you describe will still exist. Before developers come up with an endgame system which doesn't rely on getting better stats and rather improving your skill (I don't know many if any RPG's that are able to do this, MMO or not), gear based progression won't be going anywhere.

Situational gear would just solve many problems if endgame works the way it does in XI.

[Elcura]

I'd love an MMO were actual skill meant something, but that just not how most MMOs are played. Usually the only way to tell a good player from a bad one (without partying with them) is purely based on gear. You could be the best damn player in the world, but I wouldn't give a shit if you were wearing crappy equipment.

[shaddix]

and that's why I main'd whm

[Elcura]

I bet most people will think their main job required skill to play. But all FFXI required to be good was you paying attention to what was happening.

[Khamsin]

I'd love an MMO were actual skill meant something, but that just not how most MMOs are played. Usually the only way to tell a good player from a bad one (without partying with them) is purely based on gear. You could be the best damn player in the world, but I wouldn't give a shit if you were wearing crappy equipment.

Because MMOs even the playing field by replacing actual skill with in-game skill. If your character's sword skill is 276, you're better at poking enemies with it than someone whose skill is 150, according to the game. Though if it were an FPS you might actually suck with a melee weapon while the other guy is awesome at stab kills.

Only way to really change that is to eliminate skill points and replace it with your actual skill at stabbing or shooting things FPS style. But then you have to have a lot better AI for enemies, and accuracy gear will mean nothing, and the reality is accuracy will end up being close to 100% anyway unless the mobs dance around like seizuring idiots or the AI is incredible. And if you fire spells at mobs Oblivion-style, there'll be a lot of pissed mages that they blew 200 MP on a slow fireball that missed the mob completely. Resists would be the least of anyone's problems.

Everything else is just strategy and caring enough about your job to do it right, not so much skill.

[Elcura]

I dunno why you'd go straight to FPS style play when talking about skill in MMOs.

[Khamsin]

I dunno why you'd go straight to FPS style play when talking about skill in MMOs.

Just to emphasize that anything that's not hand-eye-coordination skill is mostly just strategy and paying attention moreso than what most people would consider "gaming skill".

Unless you want mini-games instead of buttons, when performing actions on mobs or other players.

[Hyan]

I bet most people will think their main job required skill to play. But all FFXI required to be good was you paying attention to what was happening.

I think that can be considered a skill in itself =P Not hard to master, but it's not like something you don't have to learn at all.

Just to emphasize that anything that's not hand-eye-coordination skill is mostly just strategy and paying attention moreso than what most people would consider "gaming skill".

I think companies should start emphasizing strategy in that case. Like with direction, orientation and position having an effect, it makes us think where is the best place to do the action, or not do it. Which skill to use for which situation.. and random enough that every skill gets some use.

[Kiarax]

Just to emphasize that anything that's not hand-eye-coordination skill is mostly just strategy and paying attention moreso than what most people would consider "gaming skill".

Unless you want mini-games instead of buttons, when performing actions on mobs or other players.

It should be a good mix of strategy/planning and skillful execution/knowledge of your abilities. Knowing what skills to use and when should require more than just actually watching the game instead of looking away in my eyes. Though I really have no idea they could go about having to make you think during combat unless they made all sorts of monsters act much more unique and have them do more than auto-attack with the occasional skill. Relying on specific and strict timings just doesn't work when people on the other side of the globe are gonna be stuck with X ping regardless of how good their connection is, so it's not exactly the best solution either.

And kind of getting off subject, but aiming doesn't have to be an issue in action gameplay. C9 had huge combos and tons of ranged abilities with very little aiming requirement, the only time precise aiming skill is required in PvP (exactly how it should be really).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-gkFL7G8ow
I'd rather Square pick this up and localize it than have them release XIV to be honest. Game was stupid amounts of fun.

[Genosync]

Anyone bitching about having to swap gear or bitching about how people started arguing over what gear is better for certain actions probably sucked at FFXI anyway.

The only reason you couldn't get the gear yourself (which is the only reason you're bitching about it) in a decent time frame was because you didn't care as much as certain other people did, so shut the fuck up and sit down. Certain things are always going to optimal over others. Learn to work with the cards your dealt and make your shit work anyway.

Example:

I wasn't getting a Ridill or an Adaman Hauberk, so I went around getting gear for my SAM because that's a hell of a lot easier and just as fun--I also made Corsair an insane merit PT DD with Joy/Kris and ridiculous amounts of Haste, plus I realized SAM roll was amazing before the rest of the world did. 37k/hr, 3COR 2BRD 1RDM. Birds/Wivre (yes, we killed wivre and kept chain w/o any issues or getting even close to losing). I forgot what we got on Mamool but didn't lose chain on that either.

And did that need any of this super special gear? No. Hardest piece of gear to get that I had on COR was fucking Skadi pants. You can do that shit in a small group every day.

I hate people that bitch about that stuff--you'll never be good at any MMO, ever, if you're going to bitch about people that say gear matters.

Guess what?

IT DOES.

[Rokku]

It should be a good mix of strategy/planning and skillful execution/knowledge of your abilities. Knowing what skills to use and when should require more than just actually watching the game instead of looking away in my eyes. Though I really have no idea they could go about having to make you think during combat unless they made all sorts of monsters act much more unique and have them do more than auto-attack with the occasional skill. Relying on specific and strict timings just doesn't work when people on the other side of the globe are gonna be stuck with X ping regardless of how good their connection is, so it's not exactly the best solution either.

I think you pretty much hit the nail on the head with that one, "skill" in all the MMOs on the market at the moment amounts to little more than knowing what to wear, when to wear it, what to do and when to do it, etc. I'm sure there's much deeper levels of strategy and skill that could be implemented, but like you said, the second you bring precise timing and the like into an MMO, you run the risk of differences in latency completely crippling some players.

XI attempted it in the idea of strategy = HNMs using TP attacks at random, with certain ones mixed in that had to be stunned with almost perfect timing, which put people with terrible ping or latency at a massive disadvantage. WoW attempted it with specific timing on mob skills that require certain reactions, which literally amounts to the game becoming a flashy game of Simon Says for anyone not playing the game with their head up their ass.

I don't really think there's a spot for real strategy or "gaming skill" in the world of MMOs beyond the mathematical and min/maxing degree of it. Until someone finds a way to regulate the back and forth movement of information in an MMO setting to the point where latency can't factor into it, strategy and skill will remain something that doesn't amount to much more than min/maxing, proper gear selections, and hit button y when x happens. If they ever resolve that issue though, I'd definitely enjoy an MMO with some of the skill and strategy requirements that you see in a lot of console games, both new and old.

And kind of getting off subject, but aiming doesn't have to be an issue in action gameplay. C9 had huge combos and tons of ranged abilities with very little aiming requirement, the only time precise aiming skill is required in PvP (exactly how it should be really).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-gkFL7G8ow
I'd rather Square pick this up and localize it than have them release XIV to be honest. Game was stupid amounts of fun.

That game looks pretty sick, why am I just now seeing this?

[Rokku]

other stuff

I hate people that bitch about that stuff--you'll never be good at any MMO, ever, if you're going to bitch about people that say gear matters.

Guess what?

IT DOES.

Sorry for the double post, but yeah.

I was about to make a post along these same lines. People seem to forget that this is BG, not Alla, and we weren't all running around complaining about "a$$hats" in big endgame shells. We were those "a$$hats".

But frankly, this is what we get for the forum registrations staying open from March-April knowing that the alpha phases were starting.

[Genosync]

Exactly.

This forum started out as a place for the solid, hardcore endgame community to actually have a home--I'll be damned if I let it turn into some bullshit "everyone's opinion is respected and we love everyone no matter how bad they are" kind of place.

If you bitch about people trying to create optimal builds, get the fuck out.
If you bitch about people trying to be better than someone else, get the fuck out.
If you bitch about people telling you your gear sucks, get the fuck out.

This goes for FFXI, FFXIV, and any other MMO you might possibly play. If you suck at game, or act like you suck at game, get out.

[Jinko]

I am not really happy SE, so far, has put the major cure on the Conj, as far as we know, as it seems to be the primary elemental nuker as well. While if I were playing a Conjurer, I would probably try to make sure I had nuking and curing equipment, I would certainly not want the community to point their fingers at all Conjurers and say YOU MUST HAVE IT!!!11!!

You can add cure to any Thaumaturge (probably with little, if any loss in healing) so you don't have to be a conjurer to heal, you can grab healings abailities from the conjurer and enfeebling abilities from the Thaumaturge, or you could take some of the astral and umbral DD stuff and use it on a DD Conjurer with their native spells.

We don't even know the full DoM list yet, there will be even more room for customisation when you add Archanist and Mystic.

I plan to play a DD conjurer and will only heal in emergencies, if someone doesn't like the fact that it's not my main spec or I don't have a set of gear for healing they can go screw themselves, I'm not guna playing this game for someone else.

As for the different sets for each spell I do find that retarded aswell, but each to their own, as long as they don't expect that from me.

[Kiarax]

This forum started out as a place for the solid, hardcore endgame community to actually have a home--I'll be damned if I let it turn into some bullshit "everyone's opinion is respected and we love everyone no matter how bad they are" kind of place.

Good luck with that. Don't think we can expect any sort of crowd control until release, even then I don't expect them to go back to old school BG. Seems the XI section is handled vastly different nowadays to a few years ago.

[Kupo]

I actually like the idea of no gear swapping during battle. Not because I don't like games that are gear based but because it seems no different than a system that lets you change your stats mid battle.

I feel there is a bit more strategy involved with no gear swapping mid-battle. You have to think, "For this upcoming battle, do I want to have better heals or better nukes?" or "Do I want to have better defense or attack?" and then you are stuck with that decision until the battle ends. It actually seems more challenging to me.

[Gokulo]

I'm just happy I won't have to blink like a Christmas tree this time. Really annoyed me that I didn't actually see myself like half the time lol D: (I know of blinkmenot but that's outside help etc. etc.)

[SephYuyX]

SE never intended the macro system to be used the way it is today. So it's no surprise theyre taking out the ability to change gear during mid battle.