New Classes Discovered

[Elrina]

I'm still a little lost how you seem to know how old I am (as if age is any indicator of respect, thats an old wives tale so children would do what mommy says), how about you stop jumping to conclusions about everyone based on their post score.

No offense, but that isn't an "old wive's tale". You should respect your "elders" because age is an indicator of experience. Some respect, true, should be shown always to other human beings, young or old. But there is a level of respect reserved for those who know more than you, and even if they don't, have been around long before you. That level of respect is earned, and until we've been around BG long enough to earn it (I know that even some of the real pricks who have been around for a long time have a measure of it from their peers), then we should show it. Public forum or not, asshats or not, this is their turf.

You may have been 75 pre-RNG nerf, but this is BG, and a whole lot of us are "new" here. So yeah, the people with "high post counts" should generally get at least a tip of the hat, even if they can be assholes. It really isn't (that) difficult, even when disagreeing or debating when most of it is speculation anyway. I don't think having a low post count makes anyone disregard information as less valuable, generally, just makes people more skeptical since it isn't exactly uncommon.

That's the way I see it, anyway. Granted, I'm nervous even posting sometimes because I hate feeling/looking like an idiot to people I don't know, but it's happened before anyway, so ~

[Ghostsix.Midgard]

While this is pretty accurate, you still need the same thing for RDM (set switching macros for RDM.) Pretty fail if you don't do it imo.

sure, but people would still invite a naked rdm. Bare minimum would be nq staves. Naked mnk? http://images.bluegartr.com/forum/im...cons/icon2.gif
inb4salvage

[Elcura]

sure, but people would still invite a naked rdm. Bare minimum would be nq staves. Naked mnk? http://images.bluegartr.com/forum/im...cons/icon2.gif
inb4salvage

If you're gonna make a comparison like that, why would the MNK be naked but the RDM still get at least NQ staves?

Fuck it, I wouldn't invite either of them. You need gear to do well, even if RDM is more desirable, you wouldn't want a gimp RDM who couldn't keep up with the party. Especially when the RDM is main healer.

[arus2001]

I just like the assumption that one who didn't like gear swapping in XI sucked at the game. Ignore aesthetics or common sense in the matter (yeah yeah, midgets casting fireballs, etc.), but there was still the simple fact the random number generator and outside circumstances could totally screw a person from their max potential.

Probably the biggest problem I have with XI now, this late in the game's life, is that while I have friends, they're rarely all on at the same time to accomplish something, or worse, might have some kind of petty vendetta that, while I maybe tried to mediate in the past, just didn't get anywhere so it's not worth the hassle of mixing oil and water.

Overall, I'm for the game eliminating bad or unreasonably forced decisions. Player run systems like DKP usually result in drama and politics when trying to seek rewards as a player with less time on their hands. With the game taking a less bias approach with things like point systems or guaranteed rewards for X activity, you eliminate a lot of that. Only real hurdle left to overcome is class or strategy discrimination, of which the usual benefit involves more time to compete over some limited resource for silly bragging rights on the internet. Fairer access or instancing helps here, but suddenly since some of the competitive sting is taken out of the game, it's declared EZ Mode or a WoW-wannabe move.

[nomad2637]

So yeah, the people with "high post counts" should generally get at least a tip of the hat

Where do those that may have had a ton of posts but forget their password, got banned or something else? They'd make a new account, start posting but their count would be low. What about those that have very low posts but post in private groups? I post all the time in the private group but they don't count posts.

In any case, I just like to point out both sides.

Fairly certain it is time for a mod to lock this thread as it has served its purpose and has fallen into a drama pit.

[mightyg]

I just like the assumption that one who didn't like gear swapping in XI sucked at the game. Ignore aesthetics or common sense in the matter (yeah yeah, midgets casting fireballs, etc.), but there was still the simple fact the random number generator and outside circumstances could totally screw a person from their max potential.

Probably the biggest problem I have with XI now, this late in the game's life, is that while I have friends, they're rarely all on at the same time to accomplish something, or worse, might have some kind of petty vendetta that, while I maybe tried to mediate in the past, just didn't get anywhere so it's not worth the hassle of mixing oil and water.

Overall, I'm for the game eliminating bad or unreasonably forced decisions. Player run systems like DKP usually result in drama and politics when trying to seek rewards as a player with less time on their hands. With the game taking a less bias approach with things like point systems or guaranteed rewards for X activity, you eliminate a lot of that. Only real hurdle left to overcome is class or strategy discrimination, of which the usual benefit involves more time to compete over some limited resource for silly bragging rights on the internet. Fairer access or instancing helps here, but suddenly since some of the competitive sting is taken out of the game, it's declared EZ Mode or a WoW-wannabe move.

Couldn't agree more. Simple streamlining like you mentioned cut out the bs and let people focus more on taking on challenges and having fun.

[SilverBreeze]

This is why we can't have nice things.

EDIT: Thread reopened, keep it on topic or you'll be taking a nice vacation.

[Genosync]

thx SB, 'cause the topic's actually a decent topic.

[Kachi]

Yee. You take off for a few days after making a point...

A few things now, a few things later.

I think what he means is balancing things via HP metrics.

It means looking at how much HP a move either ends up granting others or takes away from the foe, and then determining things like TP and MP cost based on that. It's easiest to think of it terms of 'x attack does more damage than y attack, x attack has a greater HP end, so it should cost more'.

It seems really simple at first glance, except that everything has to be boiled down to it's HP end - even things that don't directly grant or take away HP.

Refresh creates alot of MP, which means it's HP end is however many cures and nukes can be used with that mana gained. if Cure's HP end is 30, and if refresh gave you enough mana for 10 cures, Refresh's HP end would be 300.

This is a good basic overview of the idea.

HP end is a term I just made up to succinctly describe the phenomenon I was talking about. It simply refers to the fact that ultimately, everything ends with HP. HP is what decides victory or defeat. It is, in essence, the objective, and (nearly) every ability in the game ultimately ends with HP-- either by causing or enabling more to the enemy, or recovering or disabling more to the party.

Some moves are more effective than others, and often they are more or less effective depending on the timing and what they are used in tandem with. It's not a simple metric to calculate for-- don't even try. Each battle is it's own extremely complicated equation revolving around HP, but some abilities like Refresh are thousands of times more powerful than others, like Boost. Given all recasts, party members, modifiers, even objectives (win safely, or win quickly?) etc. it still has a far greater impact on the outcome of the HP stat than most others.

Everything -SHOULD- be situational. In a perfect game, there's a situation that isn't completely rare where every spell/ability/job is the best option. In this respect, I feel like every event/battle/etc. should be fashioned so a certain group of abilities/jobs/spells are the best to use and make sure each time they construct such things, they need to make sure they aren't leaving some jobs/abilities/spells out of this inclusion any more than the others.

I agree. Now, some people like it if there is a clear "best" because it gives them a clear goal and/or grants them an inarguable status as a high-caliber player. Both personally and as someone who studies the psychology of fun, I think that this should be a matter of skill, rather than configuration. There is certainly some skill to configuration, but it is a poor indicator of skill unless access to the configuration is itself dependent on having skill in the first place. i.e., the best sword can only be obtained by the best players. Otherwise, given enough time and patience, anyone can duplicate a configuration in a PVE game as effectively as anyone else. Suddenly skill refers to how dedicated you are to obtaining gear, rather than any personal ability. Sound familiar?

So generally I think the skill of an MMO should be mostly a fluid thing where you have to make the best possible use of your current configuration on the fly. Configuration skills work well in PVP games, even those like football, because your opponent is not completely predictable. In a group PVE game, configuration skills are of relatively short-lived value.

The measure would have to include a unit of time, like DPS in WoW. Obviously Cure with an imaginary 2 sec cast time, for simplicity's sake, being 25 'hp end'/sec would be much better than the .125 'hp end'/sec your exampled Refresh would be. Restoring that 15 mana over a 3 second period would be the "HPend" balance point, not including any cast time/mana cost on Refresh.

Not that this is really a great metric.

The measure exists in basically every RPG, but in a game like XI it is essentially incalculable on paper. It's just part of the fundamental design of RPGs that is useful to understand conceptually, even though you're never going to sit around and do the math for a battle. However, if you are actually the one WRITING the equations, then it is a much simpler endeavor. But even if you are the author of the equation, you should prepare for errors and later additions/adjustments by making the equation relatively simple to adjust balance-wise. AP systems are probably the easiest ways to do this in a dynamic game with customization options.

Feel free to take your time replying or ignore this altogether... I'm going to have a hard time catching up.

[Kaylia]

Gonna disagree here, I went from main rdm to mnk, and being a better rdm is all about paying attention, whereas being a better monk is all about gear. [haste/tp set], [ws set] [chakra set] [tank set] make macros, set it and forget it.

...and knowing when to back off a monster that is spamming TP move, knowing how to avoid unecessary damage, knowing when to face something away from the mage, knowing how to pull properly, knowing how to react when shit hit the fan, being able to not link unecessary monsters...etc

I will agree with Elcura here. To play your job properly, you need to be aware of your environment, and this include understanding how other jobs are played. Yes, every jobs play differently, and some punish you more than other for screwing up, but it's not where the challenge come from. If you're aware of the environment, playing any jobs is a cakewalk.

[Ryuushin]

...and knowing when to back off a monster that is spamming TP move, knowing how to avoid unecessary damage, knowing when to face something away from the mage, knowing how to pull properly, knowing how to react when shit hit the fan, being able to not link unecessary monsters...etc

I will agree with Elcura here. To play your job properly, you need to be aware of your environment, and this include understanding how other jobs are played. Yes, every jobs play differently, and some punish you more than other for screwing up, but it's not where the challenge come from. If you're aware of the environment, playing any jobs is a cakewalk.

Also want to add monks are usually tanking nowadays and they have to be aware of counterstance and shadows. Depleting your healer's MP because of too much damage taken is not good.

[Vacht]

...and knowing when to back off a monster that is spamming TP move, knowing how to avoid unecessary damage, knowing when to face something away from the mage, knowing how to pull properly, knowing how to react when shit hit the fan, being able to not link unecessary monsters...etc

I will agree with Elcura here. To play your job properly, you need to be aware of your environment, and this include understanding how other jobs are played. Yes, every jobs play differently, and some punish you more than other for screwing up, but it's not where the challenge come from. If you're aware of the environment, playing any jobs is a cakewalk.

/concur, big time. No job was ever just about gear. But.. are we talking about XI because we're bored? :/

[Azureo~]

didnt read all the thread so dont know if anyone asked this but i played corsair in ffxi and was one of my favourite jobs if played right,

if musketeer will be in FF14 do you think they will keep the whole phantom roll thing, or just sword,gun it.

[Loaar]

didnt read all the thread so dont know if anyone asked this but i played corsair in ffxi and was one of my favourite jobs if played right,

if musketeer will be in FF14 do you think they will keep the whole phantom roll thing, or just sword,gun it.

Anyone answering that is just guessing.

[Azureo~]

hope they release the class upon retail though, ;p will be my starting job.

[Metafox]

didnt read all the thread so dont know if anyone asked this but i played corsair in ffxi and was one of my favourite jobs if played right,

if musketeer will be in FF14 do you think they will keep the whole phantom roll thing, or just sword,gun it.

One guess did occur to me: For the most part, they seem to be going out of their way to split up the classes so that nothing directly correlates with the old ffxi jobs. A gambler class could appear down the line someday, but I really doubt that it would resemble corsair in any other way.

[Krystm]

Does anyone think that it will be somewhat like 11 and have new jobs once the first expansion hits? Or if there will be upgrade paths for specific jobs .... Lancer ---> Dragoon or something similar?

[Azureo~]

i dunno i dont see them releaseing them strait away cause there would be too many class to choose from lol, but we see the corsair looking npc's from the start in a few of those cutscene's and around the starter city, to maybe they will, wonder if there will be any summoner type class.

[Krystm]

I cant remember where I read it (Probably here) but there was a video and something along the lines of a character saying lets give our bard something to sing about?

[Dro Smoke]

i dunno i dont see them releaseing them strait away cause there would be too many class to choose from lol, but we see the corsair looking npc's from the start in a few of those cutscene's and around the starter city, to maybe they will, wonder if there will be any summoner type class.

some of the the corsair looking guys are marauders iirc