w1zbot userlist

[rog]

I'll pay for good info on Kaces the self proclaimed e-gangster who sells a shitty packet bot, PM me if you know anything useful and I'll reward you, for example name and address would be nice, or telephone number, something useful

Did lol.

[Yugl]

Games are based on the concept of rewarding players for the completion of certain challenges. Specific rewards are usually tied to specific challenges. In MMO's the challenges are usually certain NMs/dungeons and the reward is gear. Specific NMs drop specific gear.

My problem with Einherjar is that basically the base skill level to get top tier gear has decreased and I think that's a negative thing.

There should be quality levels for gear that are stratified based on difficulty of accomplishments. You don't just go out and get an Ebody for killing 10,000 bees. You get it from Nidhogg.That challenge included competition with other Linkshells, and a willingness to camp over multiple hours over multiple days.

But most importantly the challenge required the skill to defeat Nidhogg. If you wipe and someone else takes a mob you forfeit the loot. It's a very basic concept that's easy to overlook.

I think by opening up Ebody to Einherjar the accomplishment attached to the item has been diminished because the challenges necessary to acquire it have drastically decreased because the quality of play necessary to win Einherjar is much lower. Obviously even in an HNMLS, someone can get carried. But that's not the norm. HNMLS do not like leeches who can't pull their weight. But Einherjar is very different. When you have 36 casual players in a shell recruited from shouts, people aren't held up to the same standard.

Case in point I know someone who wiped one of my early LS twice in the Wyrm BCNM (didn't understand, twice, that he needed to stay on the feet)... now has an Ebody from Odin. An optimized alliance comprised of 18 people of his skill level would not be able to defeat Nidhogg. Therefore I don't think he should have one.

All of this is completely meaningless when you consider the fact that an overwhelming majority of the people getting gear from Einherjar are LSs competent enough to kill Nidhogg, but did not have the tools necessary to claim.

If someone worked really hard to trying to be a doctor but proved himself incompetent repeatedly, would you let keep a medical license just because he tried hard and put in the work?

If someone proves that they're unable to articulate their opinion clearly and coherently, should we restrain them from work and return them to fourth grade?

FFXI utilizes gear swaps and conditional gear. You cannot change gear in FFXI PVP. Sounds like a pretty big flaw in the battle system.

You can always allow gear changes in PVP. Just because the idea revolved around PVP, it doesn't mean you have to keep the same rules. Did I even mention Petra?

Not to mention the devs have openly said the game balance was centered around leveling, not PVP or even end game raids.

Newsflash: We're not talking about solutions SE is likely to adopt.

As I said above, gear is tied to specific challenges. It makes no sense to test you on abilities completely unrelated to the actual challenges that your gear is supposed to signify completion of.

What the hell do you think buying gear from the AH is? Does having a PCC mean I killed Argus and received the drop? Does having a Flame Ring mean I met the challenge of leveling GS to 100? You're making a terribly flawed assumption.

I think victory should be based on your abilities and mastery over your job (i.e. "skill") and not whether you get lucky and get rolled PLD or BLU for Ballista. And a fight with restrictive conditions would no longer test your abilities with your actual job.

Actually, it would be the ultimate test. Anyone who has level and mastered every class will have an absolute advantage over other plays as far as maximizing utility is concerned. If victory is only accredited to the best, then guess what? Unless LS's capabilities fluctuate rampantly, you're going to have a monopoly. That monopoly grows even more as people leave their respective LSs to join that LS.

"Everyone in LS run to the X corner of the room with the dancing taru" they group up then work through everyone else methodically. Not that it would be a bad thing, as I believe the group should be evaluated as a whole so at the very least LS vs. LS PVP would be better than FFA. But I'm just showing your specific system would work.

Drop everyone in a random Apollyon zone. Make people spawn at random spots. You do realize people will be killing each other right?

And this would only encourage the development of third party tools to allow you to win at the pre-NM mini-game, like tools to read memory and reveal names etc.

If it does, then change the game to counter these programs. You can also monitor the sessions to see who is cheating since much like with the Salvage bans, it will be pretty fucking obvious if certain players are avoiding each other in the fray. Alternatively, you could set up the fights such that only a small group of people can fight each other and the winner advances to another round. As long as this sounds, it beats sitting in the Aery for 3hrs.

So all the people afk botting or botting with extra mules is cool? I thought one of the problems with botting is that you were no longer allocating a (theoretical) claim rate to shells proportional to their actual effort/activity, you were rewarding the shell with the most mules and asleep people botting.

No, the problem for some people (I personally don't give a shit about Kings anymore) is the lack of equality among LSs. Effort and activity? It's ironic that you would champion these entities then go on to claim Einherjar is bad because Einherjar does this much better than any NM can. LS that are active and put forth the unrelenting effort are eventually rewarded. That's exactly what Einherjar does, which is why you see gear going to people you think don't deserve it.

No you're just retarded. If every individual has an equal chance to claim, the bigger more active shells with more members aggregate more of those single claim chances; if everyone gets 1 point, who has the most points, the shell with 6 people or 36 people?

If "everyone" refers to groups competing for a right to claim the NM, then your point is invalid. If a system is designed such that the number of members in a group is unaccounted for, then your point is invalid. Now then, are you retarded or did you just not think about this?

(And ironically even with claim bots, the first is true in this system. A bot can only pick one delay just like everyone else can only cast at one delay. And botting cannot guarantee you don't get locked out / cast too slow.)

That's a flawed assumption because it assumes every individual in the Aery is using a bot.

And you're assuming a specific opinion for me which I never stated. My opinion is that botting is bad but that the value of a competitive world spawn PVE system is greater than its negatives. Additionally I think that the damage done by bots is minimal in the respect that it can only optimize your claim chances, but not as much as having the most people in the Aery.

Are you retarded? Did you not notice the word "people"? Last I checked, you're a person. My post at the end addressed aggregate dissatisfaction with bots.

Give me a system that maximizes rewards the most active, dedicated, driven, and skilled Linkshells while also maintaining a zero-sum competitive climate, all the while reducing the incentive to bot.

The PVP system I described is an example of one. Honestly, are you that dense?

In my opinion the system is about as good as we can get while preserving competitive elements. What SE needed to do was police their game better. No more retarded burden of proof requirements. They should have used stinger operations; buy bots and then specifically code to break them / flag users for ban. Create a bunch of undercover GM accounts. Join linkshells, and watch from the inside or on their forums for third party usage, then ban. They should have sued the shit out of Maury.

Join linkshells? That's either going to give some LSs an advantage (The ones recognized by SE) or the SE member will be kicked for incompetence. LSs can take action to counter such measures by asking members to reveal information or use Ventrillo. Even then, all this does is allow LSs with members capable of making bots better than the rest. Hint: Exclusion and privacy help keep SE from ruining the party.

[Despain]

I say words like discombobulated, melancholy.

I dress, like a Nazi.

[noodles355]

I am dissappoint, there are no lulz here.

[Priran]

are you completely of your trolly idiot?

http://img709.imageshack.us/img709/2...4587156714.jpg

[Shenrien]

http://img709.imageshack.us/img709/2...4587156714.jpg

:D its radio!

[diemos]

I say words like discombobulated, melancholy.

I dress, like a Nazi.

You better watch your ass.

http://news.google.com/news/url?sa=t...%2Fnsmrally%2F

[Xavier]

I've made a successful business out of it, I must be a genius lol.

I'd wager it has more to do with everyone else being retarded.

[Atomic Skull]

Join linkshells? That's either going to give some LSs an advantage (The ones recognized by SE) or the SE member will be kicked for incompetence. LSs can take action to counter such measures by asking members to reveal information or use Ventrillo. Even then, all this does is allow LSs with members capable of making bots better than the rest. Hint: Exclusion and privacy help keep SE from ruining the party.

Why would they need to join LS's when it's their servers and they could just spy on them?

SE could monitor everything an LS does and then randomly hand out bans weeks or months later for made up reasons like "RMT activity". They could change the client to detect bots or cheat tools as well, and do the same thing (handing bans out for made up reasons at random time durations after detection) so that people wouldn't connect it.

[Yugl]

Why would they need to join LS's when it's their servers and they could just spy on them?

SE could monitor everything an LS does and then randomly hand out bans weeks or months later for made up reasons like "RMT activity". They could change the client to detect bots or cheat tools as well, and do the same thing (handing bans out for made up reasons at random time durations after detection) so that people wouldn't connect it.

That's another good point, but I didn't mention it in case someone with more knowledge about bots had a way to counter such measures. However, I disagree with the argument that people wouldn't connect it. At some point, people would know what is going on. Moreover, I stress the importance of my opening response to this quote because I'm sure people will find ways around the system even if it means suboptimal bots.

That said, it's ironic how he attacked one of the mentioned solutions on the basis that it doesn't reward effort/skill, then went on to say that the current system is the best we can achieve if policing were to take place. Obviously, claiming without bots is dependent on such factors.

[Ohaigaiz]

i remember when kaces bot was getting outclaimed by ffxiapp and wizbot for like 5 nidhoggs in a row

[Titanss]

this thread went hard for a sec there

[AoshiZ]

If "everyone" refers to groups competing for a right to claim the NM, then your point is invalid. If a system is designed such that the number of members in a group is unaccounted for, then your point is invalid. Now then, are you retarded or did you just not think about this?

I agree with various things you said. However, this statement confuses me. Are you refering to the fact that the FFXI HNM claim system does not account for the number of members in a group? Or is that a point on the fact that alot of the members are bots and therefore can't be used as a measure of higher entitlement? I'm not sure if I'm just reading your sentences wrong.

Additional Clarification:

You previously posted:

"Essentially, the problem is that you people have conflicting expectations of the system:
- "I want the system to give everyone an equal chance to claim"
- "I want the system to reward more active shells"
- "I don't want the system to reward botting"
- "I don't want the system to reward excess mules"

So on and so forth. Just looking at the first two I see a problem. "

I don't see these expectations being conflicting at all as long as the mules do not count as "An Individual" and Botting is taken care of and eliminated.

Individuals having an equal chance to claim and rewarding more active linkshells is already how the system works? If everyone refers to groups does that mean that your first statement was refering to groups having an equal chance?

[Yugl]

I agree with various things you said. However, this statement confuses me. Are you refering to the fact that the FFXI HNM claim system does not account for the number of members in a group? Or is that a point on the fact that alot of the members are bots and therefore can't be used as a measure of higher entitlement? I'm not sure if I'm just reading your sentences wrong.

I listed "everyone" having an equal chance as one of the four desires. That can be translated at the individual level (i.e. each player has the same chance of claiming) or at the aggregate level (i.e. each LS has the same chance of claiming). He mentioned that there is a flaw when it comes at the individual level since it means stacking members will improve chances of claiming. I'm saying that it's possible to give equality at the aggregate level and bypass the problem of stacking members. Of course, such a system would need to take caution as to not reward larger groups that simply break off. I hope that clarifies it.

[Gredival]

All of this is completely meaningless when you consider the fact that an overwhelming majority of the people getting gear from Einherjar are LSs competent enough to kill Nidhogg, but did not have the tools necessary to claim.

If you have the bodies necessary to get through Tier 3, you have the bodies necessary to claim. If you have 20+ people and you refuse to go to the Aery only because you don't bot, you've no one to blame but yourself.

If someone proves that they're unable to articulate their opinion clearly and coherently, should we restrain them from work and return them to fourth grade?

If someone leaves a word out of a sentence while making a valid point, should we try to save face by pointing out grammatical errors while completely ignoring the substance of the argument?

\What the hell do you think buying gear from the AH is? Does having a PCC mean I killed Argus and received the drop? Does having a Flame Ring mean I met the challenge of leveling GS to 100? You're making a terribly flawed assumption.

Rare/EX permits making that assumption. Sure these days you can even buy R/Ex gear, but those flags used to exist for a reason.

Actually, it would be the ultimate test. Anyone who has level and mastered every class will have an absolute advantage over other plays as far as maximizing utility is concerned.

It rewards ability to play each job marginally better than average, i.e. familiarity and not necessarily with mastery.

If victory is only accredited to the best, then guess what? Unless LS's capabilities fluctuate rampantly, you're going to have a monopoly. That monopoly grows even more as people leave their respective LSs to join that LS.

I don't think dominance is necessarily bad. If I did I probably wouldn't advocate a zero-sum system.

If it does, then change the game to counter these programs. You can also monitor the sessions to see who is cheating since much like with the Salvage bans, it will be pretty fucking obvious if certain players are avoiding each other in the fray. Alternatively, you could set up the fights such that only a small group of people can fight each other and the winner advances to another round. As long as this sounds, it beats sitting in the Aery for 3hrs.

Change the game to counter these programs? So why is that that a superior option to SE spending time to break the current bots or them camping HNM sessions ban obvious botters (oh you claimed and auto-dc'd, got D2'd by your LS, just sat there AFK while your ass got raped by Fafnir).

Basically it boils down to "Well, I hate sitting in Aery for three hours, so my alternative is better simply cause it gets rid of the world spawn"

No, the problem for some people (I personally don't give a shit about Kings anymore) is the lack of equality among LSs. Effort and activity? It's ironic that you would champion these entities then go on to claim Einherjar is bad because Einherjar does this much better than any NM can.

Einherjar functions like Dynamis with a slightly harder chamber boss instead of a giant stone. You want to champion Dynamis as the epitome of strategy and skill? Go look at the average skill and quality of a pick-up Dynamis shell and come back and tell me that Einherjar is hard. It doesn't take 36 skilled players to win Einherjar. Einherjar gets exponentially easier with bodies, even if those bodies aren't great, so long as you have a halfway decent core.

Sure Einherjar could be challenging... with say an 18-person cap. But the problem is that's not how it's conducted and that's the problem.

LS that are active and put forth the unrelenting effort are eventually rewarded. That's exactly what Einherjar does, which is why you see gear going to people you think don't deserve it.

Nidhogg spawns 1-2x a week. You get Odin once every two weeks for being flawless.

The difference is people who don't like camping will take any reason to avoid camping as an excuse. You have 36 people for Einherjar you can claim a King so long as you try. I've seen entry level shells fail at Kings because they take everyone saying "no botting = failure" as a prophecy in stone so they do retarded shit like craft during windows.

And imo part of the reason they don't deserve that gear is because they make those excuses. It's not always just about botting, some people don't like the competitive element. You don't care enough to fight against another group, why should you get the best gear?

If "everyone" refers to groups competing for a right to claim the NM, then your point is invalid. If a system is designed such that the number of members in a group is unaccounted for, then your point is invalid. Now then, are you retarded or did you just not think about this?

"I want the system to give everyone an equal chance to claim" = Every single person, individually, has the chance to go off at one single delay. Therefore they have one chance to claim. This is an equal number of claim opportunities for everyone.

"I want the system to reward more active shells" = The dedicated shells that bring 20-30+ to Aery everyday to compete instead of bitching out aggregate more chances to claim, therefore they are rewarded.


Desiring "equal chance to claim" to mean that groups of unequal numbers having an equal chance is retarded

That's a flawed assumption because it assumes every individual in the Aery is using a bot.

No my point was, bot or no bot, the current system allows pretty much one chance at claiming before you get locked out. So right now, technically, everyone has an equal chance to claim (one chance). The problem with botting isn't that it gives a single individual a better chance to claim... it makes it such that the cumulative of all claim delays is no longer a random distribution but a patterned one.

Are you retarded? Did you not notice the word "people"? Last I checked, you're a person. My post at the end addressed aggregate dissatisfaction with bots.

I'm point out, that as a response to me, your criticism doesn't apply.

The PVP system I described is an example of one. Honestly, are you that dense?

Except that you blatantly ignored my criticisms of that system. Yeah sure.

Join linkshells? That's either going to give some LSs an advantage (The ones recognized by SE) or the SE member will be kicked for incompetence. LSs can take action to counter such measures by asking members to reveal information or use Ventrillo. Even then, all this does is allow LSs with members capable of making bots better than the rest. Hint: Exclusion and privacy help keep SE from ruining the party.

The sleeper SE agents join shells to find out who has bots, not to help them.

And they join to get access to info - a copy of the bot, knowledge via vent or forum about who bots... then they code FFXI to detect the bot users and ban with extreme prejudice. Even if they modify the bot afterwards you probably devastate the LS banning 20+ people.

Even if this was a whole 8-month operation ala Salvage bans the botters are basically gone for good or too scared to try it again.

Worst case scenario you force botting under the table. No more 20+ people spreading out their delays to claim best. So you've reduced the problem of botting from people maximizing claim chances through patterned claim distributions to people afk claiming (mule claiming will exist, with or without bots -- you can always hook up machines and spam one button to claim on multiple accts at once). As long as people aren't organizing their botting they are no more effective than people spamming enter while having Provoke highlighted on JA window.

[HadesChubbs]

Or SE doesn't really give a fuck and aren't going to go on some top secret covert mission to infiltrate bases.

[Atomic Skull]

The "mob is open for 5 seconds then claim is randomly assigned to someone that attacked it" solution may not be perfect but it's the best solution that doesn't involve eliminating world pops altogether.

Sure people will triple box to increase their chances but that doesn't violate the TOS and anyone willing to buy 3 accounts and level 3 characters to 75 can do that if they want with no fear of being banned. So the playing field would be much more level than it is right now.

Or SE doesn't really give a fuck and aren't going to go on some top secret covert mission to infiltrate bases.

I seem to remember something similar to that.. lemme think, it's coming to me..

Oh right..

Or SE doesn't really give a fuck and aren't going to go through a years worth of system logs looking for salvage dupers

[nitsuj]

Wow this thread is awesome. It's just Naf talking about how much money he makes and people bitching about Einherjar and bot strategy? WTF.

But seriously, I wanna know how big Naf's pocket's are bulging, because I made a 20million dollar game and my pockets are empty. If claim bots are where the moneys at, I'm in the wrong industry.

[Yugl]

If you have the bodies necessary to get through Tier 3, you have the bodies necessary to claim. If you have 20+ people and you refuse to go to the Aery only because you don't bot, you've no one to blame but yourself.

Do you recall why I mentioned the PVP system and forced pops in the first place? It was because the question asked whether a competitive system can exist without perpetuating bots. Does the idea I brought up meet those criteria? Yes.

We're on different ideological terms here, so we'll simply never reach an agreement. I don't think people should force themselves to adopt illegal programs in order to obtain equipment from these HNMs.

If someone leaves a word out of a sentence while making a valid point, should we try to save face by pointing out grammatical errors while completely ignoring the substance of the argument?

It's a valid point, but not a sound one. If we accept your assumptions to be true, then one can make such an analogy; however, I think many would agree with the opinion that Nidhogg is a superior examination of skill than Einherjar.

You're criticizing people for receiving gear because the event from which they obtained the item does not accurately measure their degree of skill. You then made an analogy to describe a real time situation in which mobility (and subsequently, obtainment) would be impossible without meeting certain criteria. The irony, since you missed it, is that you're showing fault in your own writing (i.e. not meeting the criteria coherent writing). The point is that not everything we obtain or "pass" has to be fixed to status or a measurement of skill.

Rare/EX permits making that assumption. Sure these days you can even buy R/Ex gear, but those flags used to exist for a reason.

Making assumptions about what SE wanted is a terrible concept in general. I could turn around and ask why SE allows treasure to remain in the pool when someone joins a party. I could supplement that by asking why making alliances removes all treasure.

Your original argument assumed that gear is tied to challenges. That is, if you have this gear, it means you completed a challenge. Adding a PVP system does nothing to make this any less true than it does now. The PVP doesn't replace the fight with Fafnir, it replaces the opportunity to fight with Fafnir. You still have to kill the NM.

It rewards ability to play each job marginally better than average, i.e. familiarity and not necessarily with mastery.

It rewards both. Even then, mastery is a vague concept as shown by the difference in definition when used by Thorny and other players. Either way, you're better off having knowledge of all classes than none. You're better off knowing a class well than just memorizing the abilities.

I don't think dominance is necessarily bad. If I did I probably wouldn't advocate a zero-sum system.

Here in lies the problem. You want gear to be an indication of skill and accomplishment, but at the same time, dominance is acceptable. In case the conflict isn't clear, consider a scale with X,R,W. If X>R>W, we can tell by looking at their gear. However, if the only people with an opportunity to claim and kill is X, then there is no interval of measurement. In other words, you cannot tell if R is slightly better than W or only slightly worse than X. All you know is that R remains in between because they never have the opportunity to claim. A true translation of gear to skill (prestige) would allow for R to claim sometimes, but overall, have less gear than X. Simply put, by only allowing the best to claim, you create a system of haves and have not without the opportunity for vertical mobility.

Also, a zero-sum does not favor dominance. All rounds in the system are expected to be zero-sum unless you have a benevolent LS that shares the spoils with other LSs. That does not mean one LS has a monopoly over claims.

Change the game to counter these programs? So why is that that a superior option to SE spending time to break the current bots or them camping HNM sessions ban obvious botters (oh you claimed and auto-dc'd, got D2'd by your LS, just sat there AFK while your ass got raped by Fafnir).

You can change it before you implement it. I don't know much about client versus server side programs, so I'm not going to list specifics, but I'm sure there are ways in which the design of the PVP approach can make botting either irrelevant or obvious. Both of these options don't require SE to play 007 and invest in wide scale monitoring costs.

Einherjar functions like Dynamis with a slightly harder chamber boss instead of a giant stone. You want to champion Dynamis as the epitome of strategy and skill? Go look at the average skill and quality of a pick-up Dynamis shell and come back and tell me that Einherjar is hard. It doesn't take 36 skilled players to win Einherjar. Einherjar gets exponentially easier with bodies, even if those bodies aren't great, so long as you have a halfway decent core.

You act as if fighting HNMs is exponentially difficult. The fact that two of the NQs have been soloed should say otherwise. How many dynamis zones have been soloed? Your argument is flawed empirically because those same pick-up quality shells also tend to avoid HNMs. These LSs get two chances a week to pull off a win in Dynamis and with each chance they learn. If you give the same opportunity to them to do HNMs, you'll probably find the same outcome. That said, my friend received his Pixie earring from a pick-up PT Behemoth on Diabolos.

Nidhogg spawns 1-2x a week. You get Odin once every two weeks for being flawless.

The difference is people who don't like camping will take any reason to avoid camping as an excuse. You have 36 people for Einherjar you can claim a King so long as you try. I've seen entry level shells fail at Kings because they take everyone saying "no botting = failure" as a prophecy in stone so they do retarded shit like craft during windows.

And imo part of the reason they don't deserve that gear is because they make those excuses. It's not always just about botting, some people don't like the competitive element. You don't care enough to fight against another group, why should you get the best gear?

Thus far, your list of criteria for gear distribution is:
- Skill
- "Specific challenges"
- Botting
- Must be willing to camp
- Must want competition

I can already see conflict within this list. If the most skilled group does not enjoy competition or does not want to camp, how can gear obtained from HNMs be representative of skill? You're essentially trying to tie all aspects of prestige into gear, and it's simply not working.

"I want the system to give everyone an equal chance to claim" = Every single person, individually, has the chance to go off at one single delay. Therefore they have one chance to claim. This is an equal number of claim opportunities for everyone.

That's not what the person who said that was referring to. You're wrong.

"I want the system to reward more active shells" = The dedicated shells that bring 20-30+ to Aery everyday to compete instead of bitching out aggregate more chances to claim, therefore they are rewarded.

Dedication does not necessarily mean skilled though. Again, I would advice you to look over what you expect out of this system. What you want tends to bring up real points of conflict without placing hierarchy (i.e. is gear representing skill more important than representing dedication?).

Desiring "equal chance to claim" to mean that groups of unequal numbers having an equal chance is retarded

Why is that bad if you want gear to be representative of skill? If you can do it with less, it may mean you're more skilled than another group. At the same time, you might be more skilled if you can kill an HNM with 5BRDs than a group that needs a well balanced 4-man team.

No my point was, bot or no bot, the current system allows pretty much one chance at claiming before you get locked out. So right now, technically, everyone has an equal chance to claim (one chance). The problem with botting isn't that it gives a single individual a better chance to claim... it makes it such that the cumulative of all claim delays is no longer a random distribution but a patterned one.

However, the conditions for claiming are unequal. You can't tell me the conditions are the same when one person can sleep through the entire ordeal while another person has to remain tentative every 15min.

I'm point out, that as a response to me, your criticism doesn't apply.

You're included, not pointed out.

Except that you blatantly ignored my criticisms of that system. Yeah sure.

Your criticisms are irrelevant since your criteria are near conflicting. As mentioned earlier, dedication and skill are not equal terms. A LS can be dedicated, but be oblivious to the game mechanics. A LS can be skilled, but not give a shit about kings and only show up when HQ NMs appear (Poisoned).

The sleeper SE agents join shells to find out who has bots, not to help them.

And I'm going to openly accept SE members even though I know their sole purpose is to screw me over. Also, include the fact that if your plan were to work (i.e. reduce bots), it would mean more LSs camping. More LSs camping means more Sundi Bonds. If these LSs spread out their camping to different zones, it becomes even more contentious.

And they join to get access to info - a copy of the bot, knowledge via vent or forum about who bots... then they code FFXI to detect the bot users and ban with extreme prejudice. Even if they modify the bot afterwards you probably devastate the LS banning 20+ people.

Even if this was a whole 8-month operation ala Salvage bans the botters are basically gone for good or too scared to try it again.

Worst case scenario you force botting under the table. No more 20+ people spreading out their delays to claim best. So you've reduced the problem of botting from people maximizing claim chances through patterned claim distributions to people afk claiming (mule claiming will exist, with or without bots -- you can always hook up machines and spam one button to claim on multiple accts at once). As long as people aren't organizing their botting they are no more effective than people spamming enter while having Provoke highlighted on JA window.

Your argument is tautological to itself. You're essentially saying if 00SE is perfect, then it will hold down its policies perfectly. There's no reason for them to go through this taxing system when they can just modify the system to account for botting efforts and eliminate the need for constant monitoring.

[jurjur]

I see a lot of empire.

http://www.bluegartr.com/forum/showthread.php?t=79192

Hey look at that.

i lol'd