w1zbot userlist

[DAKPluto]

i remember when kaces bot was getting outclaimed by ffxiapp and wizbot for like 5 nidhoggs in a row

Actually was neither tool you mentioned. thanks for trying though.

(Insert comment here about numbers in DA being what matters anyways, blah blah)

[sruon]

tl;dr OP comparing himself to Taj, Wiz is a tool, FFXI claiming system sucks and einherjar rewards the wrong people.

Can we lock it now?

[Demosthenes11]

maybe if people want SE to ban botters hard enough, it will happen.
or maybe the more people want to compare this list with the salvage duping thing.

[Atomic Skull]

There are two reason SE would never impliment a system where everyone turns into a fomor and fights to the death for the claim.

1. SE doesn't like PVP except as a casual "sport" with little or nothing on the line.

2. It's utterly and completely silly. It makes about as much sense as having a magical unicorn warp into DA and bestow the drops on whatever LS can perform the best line dance for it.

[Demosthenes11]

There are two reason SE would never impliment a system where everyone turns into a fomor and fights to the death for the claim.

1. SE doesn't like PVP except as a casual "sport" with little or nothing on the line.

2. It's utterly and completely silly. It makes about as much sense as having a magical unicorn warp into DA and bestow the drops on whatever LS can perform the best line dance for it.

you are an absolutely abominable poster

[Atomic Skull]

tl;dr OP comparing himself to Taj, Wiz is a tool, FFXI claiming system sucks and einherjar rewards the wrong people.

Can we lock it now?

Comparing yourself to Taj is sort of like comparing yourself to Smokey the Crackhead.

[Cursed]

Kaces RL info, his phone number, several purchases I have made, all going to SE.
It took less to get Maury, after he decided he wasn't going to honour his sale of NASA to me on Hades.

I wonder if you're smart enough to just stfu and do what I told you to Kaces. No one has to know it was because of me. Do it, and this all goes away. Don't do it, and I'm going to give you a taster of things to come within the next 24 hours.

[Kaces]

Kaces RL info, his phone number, several purchases I have made, all going to SE.
It took less to get Maury, after he decided he wasn't going to honour his sale of NASA to me on Hades.

I wonder if you're smart enough to just stfu and do what I told you to Kaces. No one has to know it was because of me. Do it, and this all goes away. Don't do it, and I'm going to give you a taster of things to come within the next 24 hours.

lol

[psubond]

tl;dr OP comparing himself to Taj, Wiz is a tool, FFXI claiming system sucks and einherjar rewards the wrong people.

Can we lock it now?

how does einherjar reward the wrong people?

[Gredival]

Do you recall why I mentioned the PVP system and forced pops in the first place? It was because the question asked whether a competitive system can exist without perpetuating bots. Does the idea I brought up meet those criteria? Yes.

We're on different ideological terms here, so we'll simply never reach an agreement. I don't think people should force themselves to adopt illegal programs in order to obtain equipment from these HNMs.

The implication was not that they should bot, but that they can still succeed in world spawns without botting. Keys to success in world spawn go 1) numbers 2) bots. Bots can only maximize your claiming potential. Numbers matter far more.

The point is that not everything we obtain or "pass" has to be fixed to status or a measurement of skill.

My assertion was that the very function of games was to create a challenge-reward cycle. Rewards without the completion of appropriate challenges creates a two-fold problem

1) Devalues the accomplishment of players that obtain the reward by completing the challenge as specified (this is in fact the very reason botting is bad no?)

2) Destroys the incentive to complete challenges, i.e. content

Making assumptions about what SE wanted is a terrible concept in general. I could turn around and ask why SE allows treasure to remain in the pool when someone joins a party. I could supplement that by asking why making alliances removes all treasure.

Which is why I prefaced it by saying nowdays people have adapted to sell R/EX gear, but I don't think its a terrible assumption to say that gear that is R/EX wasn't mean to be sold. If they wanted everything to be sold why make those flags?

I point to the purpose the EX flag (without rare) has served in the game, especially in the game's early stages. It was used in quest missions to force people to quest out the items vs. buying the items. It's not too much extrapolation from there that the purpose of R/EX flags on abjurations and uncursed pieces was to prevent buying/force participation in a challenge.

Your original argument assumed that gear is tied to challenges. That is, if you have this gear, it means you completed a challenge. Adding a PVP system does nothing to make this any less true than it does now. The PVP doesn't replace the fight with Fafnir, it replaces the opportunity to fight with Fafnir. You still have to kill the NM.

If at the most basic level Ridill or Ebody is supposed to represent camping and killing Fafhogg, it would then make sense that the groups and players best at completing these challenges should get the rewards more often. However under your system rewards no longer necessarily accrue to the crew best at camping and killing Fafhogg; you can be marginal at that challenge so long as you are excellent at PVP'ing the other shells at Fafnir.

My issue was that your system skews claims towards groups with PVP skills or players who are familiar with many jobs instead of masters of their PVE jobs. I think these skillsets are unrelated to the challenges the gear is supposed to represent.

It rewards both. Even then, mastery is a vague concept as shown by the difference in definition when used by Thorny and other players. Either way, you're better off having knowledge of all classes than none. You're better off knowing a class well than just memorizing the abilities.

A randomized job system in effect rewards basic familiarity with all jobs. Sure it rewards mastery of all jobs the most... but I'd rather the hierarchy should go Mastery of All > Mastery of One > Familiarity rather than All than Mastery of All > Familiarity with All > Mastery of One.

What I am getting at is that I more highly regard the player who knows all aspects of one job rather than the old stereotypical Maat's cap player that only knew as much of his job as it required to level and never fully merited/geared those jobs. I think it would be a flaw in the system to reward unfocused level grinding over intense and intricate ability (however specialized)

A non-randomized job system in effect penalizes jobs that are plain out unsuited for PVP compared to others. The game simply wasn't balanced for PVP -- it was balanced for leveling.

You want gear to be an indication of skill and accomplishment, but at the same time, dominance is acceptable. In case the conflict isn't clear, consider a scale with X,R,W. If X>R>W, we can tell by looking at their gear. However, if the only people with an opportunity to claim and kill is X, then there is no interval of measurement. In other words, you cannot tell if R is slightly better than W or only slightly worse than X. All you know is that R remains in between because they never have the opportunity to claim. A true translation of gear to skill (prestige) would allow for R to claim sometimes, but overall, have less gear than X. Simply put, by only allowing the best to claim, you create a system of haves and have not without the opportunity for vertical mobility.

I said dominance, that does not imply 100% of the claims all the times. And that's besides the point -- it's not like having better gear makes you the better claimer.

I meant to point out that the dedication and drive to camp is what gives you claim chances. And in that respect claims will never be limited to the top shells *unless people forfeit camping kings (or other HNMs) willingly*

But that's exactly what happens. You find in the very top level shells a drive for the best gear, no matter who stands in the way. Competition isn't shirked from as a "waste of time" it's viewed as a challenge to crush. The reason botting is so prevalent is probably a side effect of the competitiveness of HNM players willing to do literally anything to win.

The beauty of the world spawn system in FF is that the upward mobility exists for those who have the will to camp. The dominant shells are those with this drive and the skills necessary to defeat the HNMs in question

The fact the system rewards those sorts of people is not a con, it's a pro.

Both of these options don't require SE to play 007 and invest in wide scale monitoring costs.

My point is that there are aspects of this system worth preserving at the cost of difficulty to administer.

Is the system perfect? No. Gear is not a perfect representation of either skill nor dedication, and I never meant to argue that. I've seen gilsellers get a Dring on Asura.

My point is simply that FFXI's system tends toward a much better average than any other MMO imo and for very specific reasons.

You act as if fighting HNMs is exponentially difficult. The fact that two of the NQs have been soloed should say otherwise. How many dynamis zones have been soloed? Your argument is flawed empirically because those same pick-up quality shells also tend to avoid HNMs. These LSs get two chances a week to pull off a win in Dynamis and with each chance they learn. If you give the same opportunity to them to do HNMs, you'll probably find the same outcome. That said, my friend received his Pixie earring from a pick-up PT Behemoth on Diabolos.

Is there a contingent of non-HNMLS players who could handle HNMs (Kings and up)? Certainly. Are there even more who could with a little bit of a learning curve. I agree here as well.

But remarkably they don't camp HNMs. Why? See above. The fact that they shirk away from the challenge, is, in my opinion, the reason they don't deserve the gear.

And at the same time it's not hard to realize there are also contingents of people whose ineptitude is just that. There are some people in this game who, in the best of favorable conditions, just couldn't beat some HNMs unless they were being carried by players better than them.

(And when we talk about Kings, is there any real need to discuss anything except HQs + Fafnir?)

Thus far, your list of criteria for gear distribution is:
- Skill
- "Specific challenges"
- Botting
- Must be willing to camp
- Must want competition

When did I say I was in favor of (claim) botting. I think its rational but I still think it's negative. I think that two groups of equal dedication (by that I mean equal numbers present at a camp) should have an equal shot at a mob. One side botting and the other not botting skews that. I think that's bad.

I can already see conflict within this list. If the most skilled group does not enjoy competition or does not want to camp, how can gear obtained from HNMs be representative of skill? You're essentially trying to tie all aspects of prestige into gear, and it's simply not working.

...


Dedication does not necessarily mean skilled though. Again, I would advice you to look over what you expect out of this system. What you want tends to bring up real points of conflict without placing hierarchy (i.e. is gear representing skill more important than representing dedication?).

Possible, but as I stated before... the most skilled are usually the most driven. The desire to be the best manifests as the desire to have the best gear. With world spawns this is, in effect, what motivates botting.

I won't say they won't exist, but I think most really skilled players in FFXI do HNMs as part of their end game cycle. And I think the average quality players that do HNMs is far superior to the average quality of players that don't

Why is that bad if you want gear to be representative of skill? If you can do it with less, it may mean you're more skilled than another group. At the same time, you might be more skilled if you can kill an HNM with 5BRDs than a group that needs a well balanced 4-man team.

I don't think having the current claim system de-emphasizes skill. Gear serves as a minimum skill indication. There are many more people *capable* of killing Nidhogg than there are the group best at doing it. Wearing the gear is merely proof of completion of the base challenge

Are there trade-offs between rewarding the most dedication and the most skill? Yes. I agreed the most skilled group might not even camp. But if you want that upward mobility the best way to provide it is to reward effort (because lacking the gear in the first place would put you behind in otherwise equal situation of skill right?)

However, the conditions for claiming are unequal. You can't tell me the conditions are the same when one person can sleep through the entire ordeal while another person has to remain tentative every 15min.

Sure that's an advantage to the botting shell. But that doesn't preclude my point.

They change the distribution of claim abilities and they may increase the amount of overall claimers a shell has through allowing sleepers + mules to claim. It's not as if bots, 1 v 1, have a magically better chance to claim.

And I'm going to openly accept SE members even though I know their sole purpose is to screw me over. Also, include the fact that if your plan were to work (i.e. reduce bots), it would mean more LSs camping. More LSs camping means more Sundi Bonds. If these LSs spread out their camping to different zones, it becomes even more contentious.

What part of "sting" don't you understand. SE can magically create and alter data. You make characters, completely indistinguishable from normal characters. You train or hire a STF-like entity to use these characters to infiltrate from the inside to gather valuable information not available otherwise.

The very point of this proposal is that it would have struck the fear of god into people about botting via a Salvage-purge type banning. Introduce a very real disincentive to bot, it's no longer "Bot or you have no chance" it's "Bot and you have no more character"

Your argument is tautological to itself. You're essentially saying if 00SE is perfect, then it will hold down its policies perfectly. There's no reason for them to go through this taxing system when they can just modify the system to account for botting efforts and eliminate the need for constant monitoring.

As i said earlier there are aspects of this system worth preserving at the cost of difficulty to administer.

[shepardG]

VIDEO GAME EXTORTION!

yeah!

[Naf]

Kaces RL info, his phone number, several purchases I have made, all going to SE.
It took less to get Maury, after he decided he wasn't going to honour his sale of NASA to me on Hades.

I wonder if you're smart enough to just stfu and do what I told you to Kaces. No one has to know it was because of me. Do it, and this all goes away. Don't do it, and I'm going to give you a taster of things to come within the next 24 hours.

PM sent, I'll pay you for this info

[thetruepandagod]

Good fucking lord this thread is a perfect example of the people at endgame in ffxi.

[Aevis]

please leave the thread open for at least another 24hrs, so it finally can turn into something interesting...perhabs.

[shepardG]

LOL @ gredival, ffxi withdrawal = incredibly huge posts about ffxi

P.s
Congratulations on d ring ^^

[Cursed]

I think the point has been made

[Cursed]

Naf:
I'm not interested in breaking the law. If this shit goes down the way I intend it to, Kaces is going to end up loosing everything. I'm going to legaly turn him into my bitch.
I don't associate with criminals either, so physical threats against Kaces are a big NO!
Don't misunderstand me, I'm not on your side. I do not wish physical harm upon kaces or anyone else in this game. However, I will wreck their shell and have all their characters banned, and his bot, as well as everyone who purchased it, loose everything.

[drwaffles]

Jesus fucking Christ, kiddies, when are you going to stop taking an MMO that'll be dead within the next twelve months so fucking seriously?

[Massimo]

We should make this the new AV thread. All the mentally incompetent people are already here.

[dantaro]

I give it about 30 minutes before the mods remove that entire post and probably ban you from BG. Ah well, this thread failed to deliver proper drama anyway.